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Thread: Michael Ellis - New DVD

  1. #31
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    copterdoc

    Post #1 says "...please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse (sic) methods."

    I think that she is advocating motivational training during the "teaching" portion of a dog's training. Aversives come later. (Teach, force, reinforce.)
    Last edited by gdgnyc; 03-04-2014 at 08:25 AM.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

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  2. #32
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    MIke E is a great teacher and speaker. He has the necessary info ready to speak in correct order for learning.

    I'm sure like any great trainer who has switched disciplines that there will be a learning curve,,,,whether you went from winning retriever nationals to training bomb dogs , or from retriever training to schutzhund ,,, or winning nationals to agility ,or whatever. It takes time to learn the new system and the little nuances that come with it. The more disciplines you cross over to the easier it is to incorporate methods and techniques.

    In the training world individuals in each discipline thinks the're discipline is the most difficult to master,,, the retriever world is often the most closed minded about how to train a dog,, not quite sure why tht is. But it still WAY behind in puppy development,, which I am seeing as one of the most crucial periods in the dogs life in which a trainer should capitalize on.

    Pete
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    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
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  3. #33
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Nice post, Pete.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    i Do you know how "not to pressure (y)our dog into compliance" with a middle indent retired triple, or an in-line triple with middle gun retired? Or a hip-pocket thrown into the flier station? What's your "motivational reward" for any of those? Or how would you use (or not) the e-collar in trying to master those concepts?




    MG
    I would NOT ever attemp to use an ecollar to "pressure your dog into compliance" in these situations. The collar IMHO would be counter productive and serve to make your dog nervous and give him the "Escalon Shuffles" IMHO the dog needs to be relaxed and confident on these. You {hopefully} get success here with no pressure repetition and up the difficulty level gradually. This is an area where I abandon the no repeat standard to promote comfort and success. As to the reward, that is simple it is the ultimate reward of the bird; coupled with sometimes effusive praise

  5. #35
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    I would NOT ever attemp to use an ecollar to "pressure your dog into compliance" in these [complex] situations. The collar IMHO would be counter productive and serve to make your dog nervous and give him the "Escalon Shuffles" IMHO the dog needs to be relaxed and confident on these. You {hopefully} get success here with no pressure repetition and up the difficulty level gradually. This is an area where I abandon the no repeat standard to promote comfort and success. As to the reward, that is simple it is the ultimate reward of the bird; coupled with sometimes effusive praise
    100% correct - the "pressure" is already internalized by the dog for learning those concepts without any outside elements - and if repetition (and not the e-collar) can be used to relieve that pressure, fine & dandy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    In the training world individuals in each discipline thinks the're discipline is the most difficult to master,,, the retriever world is often the most closed minded about how to train a dog,, not quite sure why that is. But it still WAY behind in puppy development,, which I am seeing as one of the most crucial periods in the dogs life in which a trainer should capitalize on.
    You really think that, Pete? As opposed to other gundog or pointer disciplines that are shall we say hidebound with their notions of "force breaking" and not even having a dog retrieve what's been shot over it? Hmm, those close-minded retriever trainers...

    And WAY behind in puppy development? - maybe you're talking about the pros who don't get a puppy until six months old? Or would it be some of us amateurs - yeah, who train our own dogs - and who wait 'til the pups are 8 weeks old in exposing them to birds



    instead of seven, thus putting us behind in "development?"

    Then again, would seem Mr. Hillman - and Ms. Mertens and Ms. Loveland - got that covered too. So what exactly is "WAY behind in puppy development" that the retriever world stands accused of?

    MG

  6. #36
    Senior Member Cass's Avatar
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    I enjoy watch Ellis in his videos because he is an excellent speaker. It will be interesting to see how he does with his retriever video but obviously as a smart man it comes down to him being able to make more money by reaching out to a bigger (new) crowd. I am not saying he won't do well, I think he knows dogs very well and as someone mentioned earlier, once he gets over the learning curve of that new dog game I'm sure he could excel. Releasing a DVD though I don't think classifies that as excelling. I would like to see him raise the pups up and campaign them, so we could really see how his spin on retriever training translates into real, tangible results. Thats just me though

  7. #37
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Cass, remind me again - in developing your spaniel pup, where and from whom up close and personal did you and the cocker get most of your D&E (development and encouragement) from? - and then there was the guy who threw in the Retriev-R trainer to boot, right?

    I agree, Ellis is a great communicator, could listen to (and watch) him for days on end. Looking forward to how he fares in communicating with retrievers - pretty sure he will succeed.

    MG

  8. #38
    Senior Member Cass's Avatar
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    Hahahaha, yes MG I am a big supporter of retriever trainers, even though I don't have a retriever (don't tell the dog that). Speaking of launchers - I took it out on the lake (not water work, the lake is solid right now, almost 20 inches of ice on it still LOL) the other day to try it out and it works like a charm. Thanks again!

  9. #39
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    copterdoc

    Post #1 says "...please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse (sic) methods."

    I think that she is advocating motivational training during the "teaching" portion of a dog's training. Aversives come later. (Teach, force, reinforce.)
    This is the way I read her post. The lady was just looking for other ways to train that were less at first. If there is and Ellis can produce, then let us hear it out. IMO
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    What should I look for? I'm on the website now.
    I have an older set of three but it looks like there is a more recent set of two

    http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=965

    http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=1003
    Darrin Greene

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