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Thread: Michael Ellis - New DVD

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    By your use of "'teaching' concepts," 'fraid your naivete's showing. Unless your idea of a "concept" is a single marked retrieve. Do you know how "not to pressure (y)our dog into compliance" with a middle indent retired triple, or an in-line triple with middle gun retired? Or a hip-pocket thrown into the flier station? What's your "motivational reward" for any of those? Or how would you use (or not) the e-collar in trying to master those concepts?



    Again, "much less fallout" relative to whom and for teaching just what, exactly, in terms of advanced training?

    Come back with a report on Mr. Ellis' progress (which he undoubtedly will make as an outstanding obedience trainer) when you have a better grasp of how retriever trainers use the e-collar in advancing their dogs instead of limiting "fallout."

    MG
    Please reread my original post...it says basic FUNDAMENTALS.

    Second, if you believe there is no possible fall out from ecollar training (whether done correctly or incorrectly) than your exposure is minimal. Even if it's done correctly on the wrong dog, it could wreck that dog to further training.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Reading your posts, you're either advocating something that really doesn't need an advocate, or you don't understand how a retriever trainer really trains.
    You got all of that about me from that 3 line post I made?? You must be a mind reader.

  3. #53
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    Second, if you believe there is no possible fall out from ecollar training (whether done correctly or incorrectly) than your exposure is minimal. Even if it's done correctly on the wrong dog, it could wreck that dog to further training.
    Deeper...that "crater's" almost head-high by now.

    MG

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdgnyc View Post
    copterdoc

    Post #1 says "...please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse (sic) methods."

    I think that she is advocating motivational training during the "teaching" portion of a dog's training. Aversives come later. (Teach, force, reinforce.)
    Exactly. Thank you for reading what I wrote as it was written.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    totaly off topic but this jiggered a memory. did Fred from sit means sit ever go far with the dog he was running in hunt tests a few years back?
    A quick search of Entry Express says he's on his third dog now and is still struggling to get SH passes. It appears the first two dogs didn't title and have quit.
    Sharon Potter

    www.redbranchkennels.net

    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers...too many to list.

    Team Huntsmith

  6. #56
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    .........In fact, anyone willing to train with only positives and be successful gets praise in my book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post

    I never accused anyone of using the "two quadrants I don't like" ... I mean, really, who likes to use force on a dog!?! When you tell your child to clean their room and they don't do you go ahead and 'force' them to?? That is simply silly. I would rather deplete all my positive resources before having to use force.......


    There are four quadrants in play with every dog, all the time.
    No matter what your personal feelings are about it, it is impossible to train a dog without using all four.

    Trying to change that, because of some weird belief in the possibility of a perfect world where pain and discomfort doesn't exist, and therefore won't influence the dog's behaviour, is as insane as trying to convert a cat into a vegan.
    Last edited by copterdoc; 03-04-2014 at 01:05 PM.
    Considering the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity". -Unknown

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    I agree. I wish people wouldn't be so quick to judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cass View Post
    I enjoy watch Ellis in his videos because he is an excellent speaker. It will be interesting to see how he does with his retriever video but obviously as a smart man it comes down to him being able to make more money by reaching out to a bigger (new) crowd. I am not saying he won't do well, I think he knows dogs very well and as someone mentioned earlier, once he gets over the learning curve of that new dog game I'm sure he could excel. Releasing a DVD though I don't think classifies that as excelling. I would like to see him raise the pups up and campaign them, so we could really see how his spin on retriever training translates into real, tangible results. Thats just me though
    I wish he would to. But unfortunately his sport of choice is protection and considering he barely has time to compete in his own sport I doubt he'll campaign the two retrievers he currently is raising. Although someone will get a nice pup with great foundation skills.

  9. #59
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharon Potter View Post
    A quick search of Entry Express says he's on his third dog now and is still struggling to get SH passes. It appears the first two dogs didn't title and have quit.
    But...but, the Koehler folks think highly of him, whether it's for retriever titles trained up to, down to or the "Sit Means Sit" decals on his shiny Humvee that he arrived in for hunt tests...

    MG

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    Quote Originally Posted by crackerd View Post
    Still, you're digging - excavating, without recourse for extricating - yourself deeper and deeper.

    MG
    How am I digging myself deeper? Because I would rather teach a concept thru motivation rather than pressure?

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