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Thread: Michael Ellis - New DVD

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post

    There are four quadrants in play with every dog, all the time.
    No matter what your personal feelings are about it, it is impossible to train a dog without using all four.

    Trying to change that, because of some weird belief in the possibility of a perfect world where pain and discomfort doesn't exist, and therefore won't influence the dog's behaviour, is as insane as trying to convert a cat into a vegan.
    I totally agree. I don't know where you read I don't.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    totaly off topic but this jiggered a memory. did Fred from sit means sit ever go far with the dog he was running in hunt tests a few years back?
    He's moved on to a malinois (and looks like he might be doing bite work??) from what I've seen of his latest postings. But then again I'm not a fan so I do not read thoroughly. It may or may not be his malinois.

  3. #63
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    How am I digging myself deeper? Because I would rather teach a concept thru motivation rather than pressure?
    Because you accuse retriever trainers of not doing so when it is what every successful trainer does. We all teach without pressure. Arguing otherwise shows a basic misunderstanding retriever training.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    Because you accuse retriever trainers of not doing so when it is what every successful trainer does. We all teach without pressure. Arguing otherwise shows a basic misunderstanding retriever training.
    Thanks, DH - I was really, really getting apprehensive that the poster's nom de plume indicated yet another misguided spinone owner...gotta think we're succeeding at getting more of them educated these days about retriever training.

    MG

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    "Incorrectly praising for not using two of the quads" ... first of all there are plenty of positive only trainers that have accomplished quite a bit in dog sports. So I don't see how that is 'incorrect'. In fact, anyone willing to train with only positives and be successful gets praise in my book. I do not have the patience for positive only training.

    I never accused anyone of using the "two quadrants I don't like" ... I mean, really, who likes to use force on a dog!?! When you tell your child to clean their room and they don't do you go ahead and 'force' them to?? That is simply silly. I would rather deplete all my positive resources before having to use force. Advanced training, whether retriever, agility, protection most all will require force to be successful to attain ribbons. I know this, I never stated anything less than that.

    If I told my children to clean their room and they didn't???? First I would ascertain why they didn't than I would use the proper response. If they didn't understand the request I would simplify and build till I received the proper response. If they understood but chose not to out of laziness, stubbornness, or as a challenge to authority I would certainly apply force. Dang this sounds like dog training.
    Steve

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    Because you accuse retriever trainers of not doing so when it is what every successful trainer does. We all teach without pressure. Arguing otherwise shows a basic misunderstanding retriever training.
    Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training?

    And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Socks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training?

    And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.
    Say what? You're anthropmophising(sp?) dogs. They're dogs; and they're smart, but not that smart. I garuntee you if I put a duck at the end of that wind tunnel my dog would run to the end of it.
    Joe Dickerson

    R.I.P. 4xGMPR HRCH Hunters Marsh Jack Daniels Bubba Jazz MH
    Call Name: JD

  8. #68
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Geez people, lighten up.

    The OP shared some info she liked.

    Like it or don't but why get yer undies in a bunch about it?
    Renee P

  9. #69
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.
    Only if they knew the value of a $100 bill?....
    I once heard the 'Undisputed' handlers of working dogs say " If you put a 20 note in a Hawthorn hedge,then ask a child of 2 to put their hand in,they would refuse on first attempt, but ask a child of 10 who knows the value of a 20 note,they will 'bare the scars' " Ian Openshaw ,over 100 ftch's .
    I got that as 'The push never came from the shove' ?..Perhaps the 'Training' process that is perceived 'here' is lacking ?
    One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever

  10. #70
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training?
    When "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar.
    "Some of us" implys that the rest of us do use the collar when 'teaching' concepts. This attitude is pretty constant throughout as are vague statements about 'fallout' from even the proper use of the ecollar


    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.
    If you are suggesting that FF is how one 'teaches' a retriever to fetch, again, you do not understand the concept well.

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