If I told my children to clean their room and they didn't???? First I would ascertain why they didn't than I would use the proper response. If they didn't understand the request I would simplify and build till I received the proper response. If they understood but chose not to out of laziness, stubbornness, or as a challenge to authority I would certainly apply force. Dang this sounds like dog training.
And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.
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Call Name: JD
Geez people, lighten up.
The OP shared some info she liked.
Like it or don't but why get yer undies in a bunch about it?
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I once heard the 'Undisputed' handlers of working dogs say " If you put a £20 note in a Hawthorn hedge,then ask a child of 2 to put their hand in,they would refuse on first attempt, but ask a child of 10 who knows the value of a £20 note,they will 'bare the scars' " Ian Openshaw ,over 100 ftch's .
I got that as 'The push never came from the shove' ?..Perhaps the 'Training' process that is perceived 'here' is lacking ?
One Shooter One Spaniel One Retriever
"Some of us" implys that the rest of us do use the collar when 'teaching' concepts. This attitude is pretty constant throughout as are vague statements about 'fallout' from even the proper use of the ecollarWhen "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar.