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Thread: Michael Ellis - New DVD

  1. #71

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    Got on this a little late but it sounds to Me like Michael Ellis is trying to take the same route
    as Fred Hassen. Switching from Maligators to labs. As he is a breeder and trainer of Malinois
    However I have Yet to ever see him prove himself. Meaning show a dog in a trial and let's
    look at some scores.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Marissa E.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehf View Post
    Got on this a little late but it sounds to Me like Michael Ellis is trying to take the same route
    as Fred Hassen. Switching from Maligators to labs. As he is a breeder and trainer of Malinois
    However I have Yet to ever see him prove himself. Meaning show a dog in a trial and let's
    look at some scores.
    Come on now,
    Everyone knows results and winning do not make a good trainer!
    Cool logo gear and awesome marketing make a good trainer!

    I apologize, back on topic

    Marissa Everett

    Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    "Some of us" implys that the rest of us do use the collar when 'teaching' concepts. This attitude is pretty constant throughout as are vague statements about 'fallout' from even the proper use of the ecollar
    Sorry, "some of us" meant me and some others, nothing more nothing less. No implication on my part. I think your feathers got ruffled because you feel accused. I'm not accusing anyone. We all train differently and I'm ok with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    If you are suggesting that FF is how one 'teaches' a retriever to fetch, again, you do not understand the concept well.
    Another misread/understanding on your part. I would hope most don't teach fetch (initially) thru pressure. Re-enforcing the fetch thru pressure is where we differ. I believe if foundation training is solid than FF in the traditional sense is not necessarily required (all dogs not being equal).
    Last edited by Enzos Mom; 03-04-2014 at 02:51 PM.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    Please show me where I accused anyone of not using motivational training?

    And let's be real...FF is not motivational. I mean, if I wanted to train someone to run the 50 yard dash would I have them face a wind tunnel tell them to run and when they get to the end I'll turn off the wind? Do you think they would willingly want to do the dash?? Probably not. Now if the reward was worth the effort, and I held a $100 bill at the end as their reward for pushing thru I'm sure they would. But the first experience wasn't pleasant. However, the consequence is even less pleasant. Same with a dog. He knows he has to do it. At some point the reward becomes the motivator.
    I'm trying to follow you, but I feel a little lost. If you don't subscribe to the idea of FF during training, then how do you teach your retriever that he must always fetch when and where you tell him? Do you require that level of obedience in your dogs, or do you just let it go if your dog refuses a retrieve, for whatever reason?

    I guess I don't quite understand your point of view , because I thought you said back in the thread that you weren't opposed to using pressure, but you imply here, that you oppose FF....

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehf View Post
    Got on this a little late but it sounds to Me like Michael Ellis is trying to take the same route
    as Fred Hassen. Switching from Maligators to labs. As he is a breeder and trainer of Malinois
    However I have Yet to ever see him prove himself. Meaning show a dog in a trial and let's
    look at some scores.
    Michael is not switching to labs. As for titles and scores, if you see his training assistance's achievements you might change your opinion.
    If 'proving' oneself is only measured by your dogs score, well then...I think we're all in trouble.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    Another misread/understanding on your part. I would hope most don't teach fetch (initially) thru pressure. Re-enforcing the fetch thru pressure is where we differ. I believe if foundation training is solid than FF in the traditional sense is necessarily required (all dogs not being equal).
    From what I've read on this forum, most everyone is very knowledgeable and love their dogs immensely. I haven't heard of anybody here who would apply more pressure or force to a dog that didn't need it.

    That being said, everyone would like to own a dog who never needed pressure to obey all commands, but I'd guess that a dog that is naturally like that, is one in a million.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChessieMom View Post
    I'm trying to follow you, but I feel a little lost. If you don't subscribe to the idea of FF during training, then how do you teach your retriever that he must always fetch when and where you tell him? Do you require that level of obedience in your dogs, or do you just let it go if your dog refuses a retrieve, for whatever reason?

    I guess I don't quite understand your point of view , because I thought you said back in the thread that you weren't opposed to using pressure, but you imply here, that you oppose FF....
    I'm not an advocate of FF in the traditional sense if there are other ways to accomplish the desired result (always pick up on the retrieve) and if the dog is highly motivated for the retrieve. I believe there has to be a better way to re-enforce the retrieve. I didn't say there is, but if anyone can come up with the concept I believe Michael Ellis can.

    And yes, there is a level of obedience that I require. My dog pretty much fetch's anything I ask. I trained him to do that. I didn't do it thru pressure but thru rewards (not just food either).

  8. #78
    Senior Member achiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    I'm not an advocate of FF in the traditional sense if there are other ways to accomplish the desired result (always pick up on the retrieve) and if the dog is highly motivated for the retrieve. I believe there has to be a better way to re-enforce the retrieve. I didn't say there is, but if anyone can come up with the concept I believe Michael Ellis can.

    And yes, there is a level of obedience that I require. My dog pretty much fetch's anything I ask. I trained him to do that. I didn't do it thru pressure but thru rewards (not just food either).
    I'm pretty much out on the rest of this conversation but just can't let this go. The fact that you think that "(always pick up on the retrieve)" is the "desired result" of FF shows blatantly how little you know and understand about current retriever training practices. FF is a rung of the ladder, a very low one, that would make getting to the top of the ladder very tough if it were removed. I'm positive I could get most dogs to retrieve using cookies but that is NOT my desired result. What I want is a dog that can handle a long crosswind water blind with an angle entry and two points to cross in route and a cookie ain't gonna get us there.
    "The thing I admire about the rat tail is that it takes commitment. It's not like one day you just decide you want one, you have to grow out that bad boy and you have to repeatedly convince the hairdresser to trust you because it's a great idea."

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzos Mom View Post
    You got all of that about me from that 3 line post I made?? You must be a mind reader.
    you're not the first person to come here with the exact same position
    Darrin Greene

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    Quote Originally Posted by achiro View Post
    I'm pretty much out on the rest of this conversation but just can't let this go. The fact that you think that "(always pick up on the retrieve)" is the "desired result" of FF shows blatantly how little you know and understand about current retriever training practices.
    Yeah, that hole dug for and exclusively by the OP would now seem to be a foxhole about the size of the Homestake Mine in Lead - and further on to that analogy, her naivete nuggets are just about all mined out. Suffice to say the consensus here is that Michael Ellis is a talented trainer and communicator, but it's gone bust (as always) for somebody to tout his upcoming training DVD and tell why as it relates to their own retrograde training notions and "fetch" experience.

    MG

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