I should note Hassen and Ellis are COMPLETELY different training styles. Hassen focuses primarily on the e-collar while Ellis is a much more balanced approach. Ellis is very consistent to the methods used by retriever folks. There's no big miracle here but I have used Ellis's communication approach with my latest dog and she responds extremely well to it.
There always seems to be a svengali type coming up the pike that markets to animal fancier peeps , that has a way to train easier , faster, and with less or no force. When they consistently win American Field Trials,they will gain the attention of the players of the game.Until then, well, its entertaining to see what they are selling.
That being said I enjoy learning, watching, listening.
You don't have to like every trainer and every method. Just because you watch someone or something doesn't mean you must become it. Sometimes I learn just as much 'why that won't work for me' as I do 'that will work for me'.
This thread got waayyy off topic. If you don't like his methods or his ideas no one is forcing you to buy into them.
It's very simple, just don't buy his new DVD. It's not that tough.
The OP was simply bringing this up for those who wish to look into other ideas, or those who already like his stuff, or those looking into other, different, trainers. I don't see any harm in that.
And I don't see how her opinion on 2 or 4 quadrant training, her opinion on FF, or pressure vs praise has anything to do with the original topic lmao
"The best reward is one that makes an impact."
"Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"
The only reason I chimed in on this thread is that people were talking about open mindedness. More than one way to skin a cat.
The Hillman stuff teaches fetch, then reinforce, with the ecollar, for example. None of the battle of wills stuff that I presume you are talking about with the ladder analogy. Although the ladder is a great analogy of how the steps of basics proceed.
I have one 3 year old lab that I trained this way, my first dog, me no expert. While I'm not a poster child for success (though I'm not a disaster either), I'm pretty sure there are some FCs out there that have been trained using this technique.
I add this in the interest of discussion.
Snake River's Banana Cream Pie QA2 MH
You really think that, Pete? As opposed to other gundog or pointer disciplines that are shall we say hidebound with their notions of "force breaking" and not even having a dog retrieve what's been shot over it? Hmm, those close-minded retriever trainers...
And WAY behind in puppy development? - maybe you're talking about the pros who don't get a puppy until six months old? Or would it be some of us amateurs - yeah, who train our own dogs - and who wait 'til the pups are 8 weeks old in exposing them to birds
Let me clarify Mike
the retriever world are all people who train retrievers. Out of all those people few develop a young dogs focus and ability to figure out how to get what they desire
I'm not talking about throwing birds for pups or teaching them to sit or return to heel or whatever. I think most people do it this way. However most do not teach a dog how to focus singularly let alone duel or triple focus. They do not teach the dog how to think and how to get what they desire.
My case and point.
I have been around hunt tests for well over 25 years and I can count on 1 hand the dogs at the JR. that could focus and perform the desired behaviors properly by 6 -9 months . I count myself in this category up until 5 or 6 years ago. Pro's that get dogs at 6 or 7 months have missed the window of opportunity. They have to do things the way they do them because of economics of the client. A large portion of their clientele have not done the best that can be done with a pup until they send their dog off. I don't care how great that dog becomes,,it would be greater if it had a puppy development program. Simply teaching a dog a few commands and throwing birds for it doesn't compare to what I'm talking about.
I am talking about development . It is totally different .
Pat Nolan ,,would be a good example of puppy development,,there are others,,just off the top of my head
Pip Pip O chap
I always wanted to say that HAAA!
Last edited by Pete; 03-05-2014 at 01:16 AM.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalms 12: 8
The wicked walk on every side when the vilest men are exulted
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!