Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
Apprentice Handler: Snake River Medicine Man, SH
Taught my dog that Tone means the same as whistle. That way I don't have to scream on the whistle real hard when he is wayyy out. If I beep him, he stops and looks back immediately.
If you yelled come and re-enforced it more consistently, he would come when you called him. Think about it... You yell come and nothing happens (necessarily). You hit the button and there is re-enforcement, each and every time...
As it is skip the verbal and just hit the button
I guess this is where we differ. I treat my dogs as I would want to be treated in the same situation so I will give a verbal command and if I get no compliance, I will give a one time warning to correct this action before force is used. You can call it reinforcement if you choose but it is still force. And I believe that my dogs (like myself) are entitled to a second chance to make it right on that rare occasion.[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, treating dogs like humans. A common dilemma I run into every day.
What you'll find is that if you studied and applied proper re-enforcement schedules in training, you wouldn't need the second command/warning. Helps a lot to get things habituated to the point you rarely need those things if you plan to run your dogs without the collar (such as in a test or other competition where the collar is not allowed).
Dogs learn over repeated exposure that there are certain times they don't have to pay attention to you. If a correction brings your dog "back to business" it's because he wasn't paying any attention to you and now that he's received a signal consistent with "training time" he starts to ignore his environment and focus on you. You're simply tapping into his habitual behavior bank at that point because you've used the collar (tone or stim) to refocus his attention on you. He's habituated that when those stimuli are in the environment he can't make his own decisions and when they are missing, he's free to do as he pleases.
It's really tough with sport dogs because there are times we really do want them to think independently and make their own decisions. All dogs actually, have some degree of this. When we turn them out into a fenced yard with no supervision, they have a tendency to not be paying attention when we call them back. That is, until we interject with something that's strong enough to overcome the environmental distractions and get their attention. That's why people who have had basic clicker classes can often be found calling their dogs with the clicker. The clicker gets re-enforced as a signal for a treat every single time they hear it. The here command gets re-enforced inconsistently and for far less repetitions. The clicker then becomes more powerful than the verbal command and sometimes more powerful tan the environment.
The trick is to re-enforce our commands enough that the sound of our voice (or whistle, or whatever) is a powerful enough part of the environment to demand the dog's attention.
If you have the dogs attention you can get compliance with your commands. If not, well, you're pretty much SOL.
Think of it like giving a kid a video game. If he can't play he'll be all over the place, bouncing off the walls and demanding attention every way possible in order to occupy his mind. Once he has the game back, he will focus on it for hours. Your dog does the same thing. No stimulus from you and the environment takes over. When you interject you have to do so with something that's been re-enforced as positive enough to overtake the environment. Give that same kid a book and he'll keep right on being naughty. A video game or TV on the other hand, gains his attention.
Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-01-2014 at 08:24 PM.
Ah yes, I forget these discussions focus strictly on competition where as I don't worry about my dogs life being jeopardized.
I am thinking I might do exactly the same as opposed to the tone being a comeback call.
I appreciate your discussion on the topic. The key point that even you admit to though is "rarely". That rare occasion is exactly the one I am basing my opinions on, not the every day routine. However you have helped me to remember my days of training for competition from years ago.
I understand exactly what you're saying. I just TRY really hard to make the voice mean something the first time and then when the instance comes up that I have to repeat myself, I use stimulation as opposed to tone.
I deal more with the life and death situation than competition these days myself and I'm usually teaching others.
They have a hard enough time understanding when to push the button without adding the warning so I just teach them to stimulate if they have to repeat themselves. I also find that the "Warning" pretty much always becomes the command, since it gets re-enforced far more consistently.
I also tell them that if their dog is about to chase a squirrel into traffic, forget repeating yourself! press the button on the first command!
Just a product of my environment, I suppose. Most people I deal with need things presented in an extremely simple fashion to be successful.
Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-01-2014 at 11:47 PM.
When I had a Sportdog 1825 I had trained the tone over the whistle to make for quiet upland hunting - worked except in really tall crp (tone was on the collar).
Darrin, I find it interesting you mention clicker trainers using clicker as "here" command. I started my older dogs with the clicker & moved to marker. These dogs can be zonked out downstairs & I start doing some work with a younger one upstairs & within a short period they're underfoot. I guess I'm slow; while I know it's not proper use, I hadn't even thought of that.
HR True Grits Finer Edge
Good anology Darrin
If I can refine it a little
When I am watching football and my wife speaks to me,,,, I actually hear her,,,yet I do not respond. Men are very visual and their focus intensifies with the sence of sight. We really hone in on what we are looking at. If my wife smacks me in the head when she speaks as I am focused on a football game,,it doesn't take long that when she starts to talk to me when I am watching the game ,,I immediately turn and listen.
Woman are that way with hearing and not with sight.
Dogs are this way with the sense of smell. They use the majority of their brain to analise scent so they are focued on what they are sniffing.. When I air dogs in the yard they don't pay as much attention to me than when I air them in the field. They don't get away with slipped "here" in the field,,,,but around the house they know I often am doing something else and only here bla bla bla when I call them because I am usually busy doing something and don't drop what I am doing immediately to back up my command.
Last edited by Pete; 03-02-2014 at 07:45 AM.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalms 12: 8
The wicked walk on every side when the vilest men are exulted
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!