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Thread: "TONE" - where and why?

  1. #31
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I hope you don't mind me picking on you to try to illustrate a point for others Carol.

    That's not why he comes He comes because you have trained him to respond to the tone as a come command, and that command is more powerful than your voice because it has been consistently re-enforced. You may not have done it on purpose, but that's what you've done.

    If you yelled come and re-enforced it more consistently, he would come when you called him. Think about it... You yell come and nothing happens (necessarily). You hit the button and there is re-enforcement, each and every time...

    As it is skip the verbal and just hit the button

    Nothing wrong with it BTW, just trying to get people to think more clearly about what they are doing and why the reacts the way it does.
    I agree with the reasoning! But the reason I call his name first, is this is done quietly. He might be two feet away from me and I can't see him. If he does not respond to a soft verbal, then the tone. That can reach him anywhere in the large yard. I don't really see it as a "warning". On the other hand, if I do use the tone and he goes streaking through the yard in the wrong direction chasing something, then I will use an actual correction, quickly!
    Carol,
    Owned and handled by Cruisin' with Indiana Jones, JH
    Alternate Handler: Westwind Buffalo Soldier
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  2. #32
    Senior Member CodyC's Avatar
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    Taught my dog that Tone means the same as whistle. That way I don't have to scream on the whistle real hard when he is wayyy out. If I beep him, he stops and looks back immediately.

  3. #33
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=mtncntrykid;1194455][QUOTE=DarrinGreene;

    If you yelled come and re-enforced it more consistently, he would come when you called him. Think about it... You yell come and nothing happens (necessarily). You hit the button and there is re-enforcement, each and every time...

    As it is skip the verbal and just hit the button

    I guess this is where we differ. I treat my dogs as I would want to be treated in the same situation so I will give a verbal command and if I get no compliance, I will give a one time warning to correct this action before force is used. You can call it reinforcement if you choose but it is still force. And I believe that my dogs (like myself) are entitled to a second chance to make it right on that rare occasion.[/QUOTE]

    Ah yes, treating dogs like humans. A common dilemma I run into every day.

    What you'll find is that if you studied and applied proper re-enforcement schedules in training, you wouldn't need the second command/warning. Helps a lot to get things habituated to the point you rarely need those things if you plan to run your dogs without the collar (such as in a test or other competition where the collar is not allowed).
    Darrin Greene

  4. #34
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    the text books say that then my interpretation of what I sometimes see would be different I would have to take issue with your textbook. Just giving MHO, so flame on behavioralists
    It has nothing to do with the text book but rather one of the things most people miss that is completely fundamental to all of your interactions with your dog.

    Dogs learn over repeated exposure that there are certain times they don't have to pay attention to you. If a correction brings your dog "back to business" it's because he wasn't paying any attention to you and now that he's received a signal consistent with "training time" he starts to ignore his environment and focus on you. You're simply tapping into his habitual behavior bank at that point because you've used the collar (tone or stim) to refocus his attention on you. He's habituated that when those stimuli are in the environment he can't make his own decisions and when they are missing, he's free to do as he pleases.

    It's really tough with sport dogs because there are times we really do want them to think independently and make their own decisions. All dogs actually, have some degree of this. When we turn them out into a fenced yard with no supervision, they have a tendency to not be paying attention when we call them back. That is, until we interject with something that's strong enough to overcome the environmental distractions and get their attention. That's why people who have had basic clicker classes can often be found calling their dogs with the clicker. The clicker gets re-enforced as a signal for a treat every single time they hear it. The here command gets re-enforced inconsistently and for far less repetitions. The clicker then becomes more powerful than the verbal command and sometimes more powerful tan the environment.

    The trick is to re-enforce our commands enough that the sound of our voice (or whistle, or whatever) is a powerful enough part of the environment to demand the dog's attention.

    If you have the dogs attention you can get compliance with your commands. If not, well, you're pretty much SOL.

    Think of it like giving a kid a video game. If he can't play he'll be all over the place, bouncing off the walls and demanding attention every way possible in order to occupy his mind. Once he has the game back, he will focus on it for hours. Your dog does the same thing. No stimulus from you and the environment takes over. When you interject you have to do so with something that's been re-enforced as positive enough to overtake the environment. Give that same kid a book and he'll keep right on being naughty. A video game or TV on the other hand, gains his attention.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-01-2014 at 07:24 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  5. #35
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2tall View Post
    I agree with the reasoning! But the reason I call his name first, is this is done quietly. He might be two feet away from me and I can't see him. If he does not respond to a soft verbal, then the tone. That can reach him anywhere in the large yard. I don't really see it as a "warning". On the other hand, if I do use the tone and he goes streaking through the yard in the wrong direction chasing something, then I will use an actual correction, quickly!
    We taught my 70 year old Dad's Westie to come to the tone also Carol, so he doesn't have to yell across the yard at 5 am. He loves it and the dog knows exactly what it means. She blows off his voice a lot, but she comes to the collar every time...
    Darrin Greene

  6. #36
    Senior Member mtncntrykid's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=DarrinGreene;1194553]
    Quote Originally Posted by mtncntrykid View Post

    Ah yes, treating dogs like humans. A common dilemma I run into every day.

    What you'll find is that if you studied and applied proper re-enforcement schedules in training, you wouldn't need the second command/warning. Helps a lot to get things habituated to the point you rarely need those things if you plan to run your dogs without the collar (such as in a test or other competition where the collar is not allowed).
    Properly applied re-enforcement is a constant, but not ever needing a second command is a delusion with a potentially life ending result. I will continue to opt for the immediate control at my fingertips.
    Ah yes, I forget these discussions focus strictly on competition where as I don't worry about my dogs life being jeopardized.

    CodyC,

    I am thinking I might do exactly the same as opposed to the tone being a comeback call.

  7. #37
    Senior Member mtncntrykid's Avatar
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    Darrin,

    I appreciate your discussion on the topic. The key point that even you admit to though is "rarely". That rare occasion is exactly the one I am basing my opinions on, not the every day routine. However you have helped me to remember my days of training for competition from years ago.

  8. #38
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtncntrykid View Post
    Darrin,

    I appreciate your discussion on the topic. The key point that even you admit to though is "rarely". That rare occasion is exactly the one I am basing my opinions on, not the every day routine. However you have helped me to remember my days of training for competition from years ago.
    Thanks, I do as well and I apologize if I sounded a bit snarky at the start (I re-read it ).

    I understand exactly what you're saying. I just TRY really hard to make the voice mean something the first time and then when the instance comes up that I have to repeat myself, I use stimulation as opposed to tone.

    I deal more with the life and death situation than competition these days myself and I'm usually teaching others.

    They have a hard enough time understanding when to push the button without adding the warning so I just teach them to stimulate if they have to repeat themselves. I also find that the "Warning" pretty much always becomes the command, since it gets re-enforced far more consistently.

    I also tell them that if their dog is about to chase a squirrel into traffic, forget repeating yourself! press the button on the first command!

    Just a product of my environment, I suppose. Most people I deal with need things presented in an extremely simple fashion to be successful.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-01-2014 at 10:47 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  9. #39
    Senior Member kdeckels's Avatar
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    When I had a Sportdog 1825 I had trained the tone over the whistle to make for quiet upland hunting - worked except in really tall crp (tone was on the collar).

    Darrin, I find it interesting you mention clicker trainers using clicker as "here" command. I started my older dogs with the clicker & moved to marker. These dogs can be zonked out downstairs & I start doing some work with a younger one upstairs & within a short period they're underfoot. I guess I'm slow; while I know it's not proper use, I hadn't even thought of that.
    HR True Grits Finer Edge

  10. #40
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    Good anology Darrin

    If I can refine it a little
    When I am watching football and my wife speaks to me,,,, I actually hear her,,,yet I do not respond. Men are very visual and their focus intensifies with the sence of sight. We really hone in on what we are looking at. If my wife smacks me in the head when she speaks as I am focused on a football game,,it doesn't take long that when she starts to talk to me when I am watching the game ,,I immediately turn and listen.
    Woman are that way with hearing and not with sight.
    Dogs are this way with the sense of smell. They use the majority of their brain to analise scent so they are focued on what they are sniffing.. When I air dogs in the yard they don't pay as much attention to me than when I air them in the field. They don't get away with slipped "here" in the field,,,,but around the house they know I often am doing something else and only here bla bla bla when I call them because I am usually busy doing something and don't drop what I am doing immediately to back up my command.
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 03-02-2014 at 06:45 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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