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Thread: A great debate question - remote sit

  1. #51
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swliszka View Post
    It appears some of you are beating the rules to death. How many of you have trained your dogs to do this. How many of you have been faced with running this in a field trial. I have which is why I offered the previous advice. Further when you get the initial instructions from the judges after the test dog(s) I suggest you ask some of these questions. I for instance stand @ the handler station blow my whistle w/a chirp , extend my arm in an over position and send the dog w/a verbal over. My two best dogs did this in all situations unless they were a having a bad day. They had no confusion because they were trained. Further , you might ask the judges after the test dog is a single whistle blast allowable w/o penalties ? If they say yes than you go w/a verbal (in my case) over and they go. This response is not to be rude but I almost want to take all of you out to a field and show you. Surely there are others who train their dogs this way and have run this in FT?
    Yes that is the way Clint teaches it, except with a back or angled back not an over.....but good point about asking the judge if a single whistle is acceptable
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Sundown49 aka Otey B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splash_em View Post
    Cast refusal and daylight burner to add an unnecessary 45 seconds to a minute for every dog running.

    With limited resources, I don't want to tie my marshal and gunners tied up any longer than absolutely necessary.

    To me it is a judge trying to be in total control regardless of the unnecessary BS.
    I would have a SERIOUS discussion on this before it was included in test. Just another reason I don't want to judge MASTER.
    Last edited by Sundown49 aka Otey B; 03-04-2014 at 06:07 PM.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member labguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    OK, devils advocate here, understanding the way the rule is written in field trials, lets change the OP scenario slightly. Lets say the handler sat his or her dog in a front facing position, walked back that reasonable distance, stood there looking at the dog and gave a silent back arm cast. The dog sat still without moving, the handler then quickly repeated the cast with a verbal "back" and the dog took off, completing the blind in good fashion. How would other FT judges interpret that relative to the way the rule is written?
    OK, I'm bored too so I'll bite.

    Who is to say that the handler in this scenario wanted his dog to move with the silent cast? Maybe he trains his dogs that way.


    I train with an old time FT'er that gives the cast with no voice, holds his arm up and waits 4 or 5 seconds and then gives a verbal. His dogs are trained that way and he has some of the best blind running dogs I've seen.


    In the scenario described you must give the benefit of the doubt to the handler.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swliszka View Post
    It appears some of you are beating the rules to death. How many of you have trained your dogs to do this. How many of you have been faced with running this in a field trial. I have which is why I offered the previous advice. Further when you get the initial instructions from the judges after the test dog(s) I suggest you ask some of these questions. I for instance stand @ the handler station blow my whistle w/a chirp , extend my arm in an over position and send the dog w/a verbal over. My two best dogs did this in all situations unless they were a having a bad day. They had no confusion because they were trained. Further , you might ask the judges after the test dog is a single whistle blast allowable w/o penalties ? If they say yes than you go w/a verbal (in my case) over and they go. This response is not to be rude but I almost want to take all of you out to a field and show you. Surely there are others who train their dogs this way and have run this in FT?
    I trained on it regularly and hunted my dog extensively. The dog I talked about in the earlier post who refused to go was the same dog... She died at 8 years old as an FC AFC with 96.5 all age points... But, she was still just a dog. And on the occasion I wrote about, she flat out refused to go. Don't know what it was she didn't like. I sent her the same way I did her whole career without issue before and after... But on that day, it was sorry Charlie. Rules had nothing to do with it.
    Last edited by huntinman; 03-04-2014 at 08:04 PM.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    Ok since it's winter and I'm home stuck in the snow instead of down south training my dog, I'll take part in one of these, esoteric-fine-point-hypotheticals. If a judge was inclined because this dog's overall blind was spectacular, and from the obvious fact the dog wasn't afraid to go, could you interpret the situation as being the dog wasn't "sent" until the handler raised his hand and voiced the back command? I know that would be my argument to you if you were my co-judge in this situation.
    If you choose to be unconventional, don't be surprised if your unconventional means bite you in the butt. If you are going to cast this way, it would be wise to tell the judges that is what you are doing. In the absence of any other information, as a judge I would view this as a failure to go when sent. Mandatory elimination. Like Penn, I think this is an interesting hypothetical, but in the real world, most judges would drop this dog.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    No-GO's are a spirit of the rules decision, The rule was designed for those dogs that have no interest in going, or those with their tails so far under their bums that they have to be conned into it by sending them multiple times. It was not designed as a trick to catch good dogs who want to go and go hard, but who might not hear a command, or the handler says the command in the wrong way, or a dog momentarily doesn't understand what a handler would like them to do, nor understand why a handler would send them on a blind and not tell them where they should be going. This is why we have judges to interpret these rules, use them in their proper place, not as a catch all to drop dogs. If everything was black and white, we wouldn't need judges.

    I disagree. The rule book is clear. This area is very black and white. Confusion is an excuse on marks. Confusion is irrelevant on blinds.

    No go on blind, elimination. Period
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swliszka View Post
    It appears some of you are beating the rules to death. How many of you have trained your dogs to do this. How many of you have been faced with running this in a field trial. I have which is why I offered the previous advice. Further when you get the initial instructions from the judges after the test dog(s) I suggest you ask some of these questions. I for instance stand @ the handler station blow my whistle w/a chirp , extend my arm in an over position and send the dog w/a verbal over. My two best dogs did this in all situations unless they were a having a bad day. They had no confusion because they were trained. Further , you might ask the judges after the test dog is a single whistle blast allowable w/o penalties ? If they say yes than you go w/a verbal (in my case) over and they go. This response is not to be rude but I almost want to take all of you out to a field and show you. Surely there are others who train their dogs this way and have run this in FT?

    Most experienced handlers start the remote cast with a whistle. Most experienced judges do not even make note of a whistle at the beginning of a remote cast blind. But, it never hurts to ask the judge.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Don't get your panties in a wad Ted, Im agreeing with you{sort of, I think} in that you should judge the overall blind
    However Come in whistles aren't all created equally. If the dog stops on a whistle and in his stopping process goes out of sight into a depression then the come in whistle may be neccessary and should'nt be punished. However if the dog gives some mis casts {he is already leaking oil IMHO} at the start of the blind and is in plain sight and the handler givres him a come in whistle to break his momentum and /or pull him away from some suction, then my interpretation may be that he has quit running the blind and is now training

    Why bother trying to figure out if it is training or not? If you sweat a dog on a point, that is a training technique. It is also good handling. If you use a second whistle on a point to emphasize to the dog what you want, that is a training technique. It is also good handling. If you cast soft up close, that is a training technique. It is also good handling. If you blast a dog out when it is about to switch with a loud nasty verbal, that is a training technique. It is also good handling.

    There are only a few mandatory reasons for elimination on a blind
    - Failure to go
    - Failure to return with a bird
    - Returning with the wrong bird (poison bird)

    Other than that you get called back - or dropped - based on
    - How good you performed on the blind relative to other dogs
    - How good your cumulative work was compared to other dogs

    Not on whether
    - You started a remote cast blind with a whistle
    - You used a come in whistle

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  9. #59
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    "You used a come in whistle" You can be penalized or dropped by some current 8 point+ judges on blinds by using what I call a suck-in whistle where the dog makes lateral movement versus forward movement. I will not run under either of them again. 67 dog amateur w/six dogs called back to 4th series water blind. Only places 1-4 awarded - No reserve jam , No jam.

  10. #60
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    No-GO's are a spirit of the rules decision, The rule was designed for those dogs that have no interest in going, or those with their tails so far under their bums that they have to be conned into it by sending them multiple times. It was not designed as a trick to catch good dogs who want to go and go hard, but who might not hear a command, or the handler says the command in the wrong way, or a dog momentarily doesn't understand what a handler would like them to do, nor understand why a handler would send them on a blind and not tell them where they should be going. This is why we have judges to interpret these rules, use them in their proper place, not as a catch all to drop dogs. If everything was black and white, we wouldn't need judges.
    Actually, I think No-Gos are as letter of the rule as it gets. I am not sure why the rule is the way it is--and mentioned earlier that it I was interested in how it came about--but it is pretty clear that, from a rules perspective, the dog cannot be confused as to whether sent on blinds. Of course, we have all seen dogs that were confused. I have dropped dogs that were confused and have had a dog dropped that was confused (just got him after being washed off a pro's truck and my cadence was not what he was used to). I think it is unfortunate that it is so black and white, but as a judge I think I am supposed to use the rules as they are not as I wish them to be.

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