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Thread: Judging the Labrador Retriever

  1. #31
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polmaise View Post
    Kennel Clubs and committees within them can print all the standards of a breed they wish ! It is the Judges who decide and determine what 'types' are successful within that standard in competition . So,this judge (much like every other) will have a perception of what the winner should look like (within the standard) but biased towards their own preference (look) and obviously would be the 'type' that 'They' have and/or have had success with.

    They may look 'Eye sweet' , but the show judge (and competitor) never relates any attribute of the dog to 'It's Knowledge/Brain/Field ability' ......Just 'Looks !!!
    Hey' Cindy Crawford is a good looking woman! But she ain't likely to do much outside other than still look pretty outside .
    Uh... Is there a problem with that
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQbQmtA6IU
    Bill Davis

  2. #32
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    Uh... Is there a problem with that
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gYQbQmtA6IU
    They should make me a Judge. In a very short time, Labs would at least look fit and trim in the sporting group. Maybe, they would win BIS.

  3. #33
    Senior Member .44 magnum's Avatar
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    The entire sport( LOL )of dog shows is a corrupt process. One person, the judge, should not decide which dog is better. Who is to say politics do not enter into decisions.

    I understand the animus towards those who do not keep their dogs at healthy weights and condition. Myself I consider that cruel. To keep a sporting breed kenneled and not let run or take them into a field or for a swim baffles my understanding of dog breeding.

    I blame the Field breeders as much as the show breeders also. While the Field bred lab today can run fast, his muzzle is snippy, his legs too long , and he has lost the otter tail. He looks more like a greyhound.

    Some show breeders are breeding too much for bone and a typy look. The extremes in both the field and show Labradors is something old timers like me find unpleasant.

    If one looks at one of America's most respected Labrador breeders, the Dickendall web site shows how much the dog they bred in the sixties has changed from the dogs they breed today. This is one breeder whose dogs have been used over and over the last forty years. They are structurally sound and hunt well. They need to be worked is all. Myself I've hunted with one for 7 seasons and he can go all day. He goes hiking with me up some very big mountains with the ease of a bear or mountain lion. He does not break down. He is also a well behaved and gentle dog. I would not trade him for any Labrador on earth today.

    First Champ ... http://www.dickendall.com/flip.html

    Master Hunter today .. http://www.dickendall.com/decker.html
    Last edited by .44 magnum; 03-08-2014 at 12:24 PM.
    I don't think I smell like a brewery. I was drinking Scotch.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Jeff, that is the point of "breed type". "Type" is the facet of a dog that tells you immediately what breed of dog it is. If the head says "Rottie", then that head is not true to Lab type.

    The Sandylands prefix was very influential in the development of Labs in the UK. This is one page of their website http://www.sandylands.net/history2.html

    I think that Sandylands Tandy and Sandylands Truth look like they could work quite well in the field. Their heads are neither "weak" nor "Rottie". However, these dogs were from the 50s and 60s. By the 80s and 90s change had already begun.

    http://www.shamrockacreskennels.com/history02.html Shamrock Acres began in the US in 1957, and their "history" pages on their website also show the progression of the breed in the US. Notice how the early Shamrock Acres breedings combined proven FT lines.

    The Shamrock Acres website mentions the Whygin prefix, but I could not find any images of Whygin dogs. However, the Whygin prefix is probably most known to field trialers for NFC Whygin Cork's Coot. I found a photo of him (with pedigree)
    http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/labr...gin-corks-coot
    Gerry,

    Good post! I'd didn't know you spoke "Labrador"? Good to know you appreciate the history.

    I thought the Sandylands history showed a progression from that of an athletic working Lab in the earliest photos toward a dog with too short a muzzle, with too much "substance", lacking the scope to perform as the breed was intended. I've always liked the look of British Justice as a pattern for Labrador breed type. http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=2823

    It seems things started to go too far in terms of shortened muzzles, shorter legs, and heavier bodies somewhere around Reanacre Mallardhurn Thunder http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=3521 or his son Sandylands Mark http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=3712.

    The links to dickendall provided by .44 Magnum show the changes in that kennel from the working type Lab they began with (from Sandylands blood) to the ubiquitous Dickendall's Arnold.

    These examples show what happens when breeders strive for "more". More head, more coat, and more substance. The exaggeration of "type" becomes something that was not what the Labrador retriever ever was or should have become.

    Here's a couple of field Labs for comparison. First, take a look at Air Express http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=298. I don't think this photo does him justice, but it's hard to find good profile pictures of field Labs. Another decent looking field Lab was Ray's Rascal http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=202. I really like the write up for Rascal. Always a hunting dog, easy to train, honest, and eager to please. That's what every Lab should be regardless their appearance.

    I must confess I had a hard time finding a really good picture of a really bad looking field Lab. I know there are some out there that miss the mark a mile physically, when it comes to my image of the ideal Lab. It seems I'm more familiar with the names of field Labs from the 70's and 80's than with those of today. It must go with my graying muzzle!

    Swack
    Jeff Swackhamer

  5. #35
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    LOL!, Swack, yes I speak a little Labrador My first field training partner had a daughter of Trumarc's Raider when I had a Ki son. Later she bred to Air Express, and also to Westwind's Supernova Chief; the latter breeding produced AFC Back Acher's Son of a Witch. Kendall Herr, of Dickendall Labs, also lived in our area many years ago, so I saw several of her dogs back then as well. both in the ring and at hunt tests. I got familiar with the Lab pedigrees of that day of necessity However, my knowledge is "sketchy" when it comes to more recent dogs.

    .44 Magnum, I looked at the photos. I noticed that the 1st CH came from Sandylands, and I must say that I much prefer his type to the more recent Decker. Do you have a photo of your dog to which of these two he more resembles?

    Yes, Magnum, there is a political aspect to conformation judging. I believe it happens in almost every venue of dog sport since judging is a subjective thing, but even more subjective in the conformation ring.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .44 magnum View Post
    The entire sport( LOL )of dog shows is a corrupt process. One person, the judge, should not decide which dog is better. Who is to say politics do not enter into decisions.

    I understand the animus towards those who do not keep their dogs at healthy weights and condition. Myself I consider that cruel. To keep a sporting breed kenneled and not let run or take them into a field or for a swim baffles my understanding of dog breeding.

    I blame the Field breeders as much as the show breeders also. While the Field bred lab today can run fast, his muzzle is snippy, his legs too long , and he has lost the otter tail. He looks more like a greyhound.

    Some show breeders are breeding too much for bone and a typy look. The extremes in both the field and show Labradors is something old timers like me find unpleasant.

    If one looks at one of America's most respected Labrador breeders, the Dickendall web site shows how much the dog they bred in the sixties has changed from the dogs they breed today. This is one breeder whose dogs have been used over and over the last forty years. They are structurally sound and hunt well. They need to be worked is all. Myself I've hunted with one for 7 seasons and he can go all day. He goes hiking with me up some very big mountains with the ease of a bear or mountain lion. He does not break down. He is also a well behaved and gentle dog. I would not trade him for any Labrador on earth today.

    First Champ ... http://www.dickendall.com/flip.html

    Master Hunter today .. http://www.dickendall.com/decker.html

    This is Reba, I don't find her Muzzle snippy

  7. #37
    Senior Member .44 magnum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey Towler View Post

    This is Reba, I don't find her Muzzle snippy
    IMO. She is beautiful.... and not snippy . Remember there are good and bad breeders on both sides of the fence today...

    Females will have a different look in the muzzle then males in both show and field Labradors.

    Generalizations are wrong, sorry if I came off that way. Do I wish we could have a Labrador we could agree on in it's looks. Yes. I like the first Champ from Dickendall in 1970 more then their Master hunter of today.

    Bottom line every Labrador has great qualities. Just remember that some Show breeders have reached the title of Master Hunter with their lines. More should try. Not every Labrador from a littler goes on to be best in breed at Westminster, or win the National Amateur Field Trial Championship.

    Is my "Show" bred Lab fat? Many have told me so, but his ribs are easily felt. Pet owners can't do anything about how their dogs look. So some of these threads about Westminster and judging can't be control by non-breeders.


    I don't think I smell like a brewery. I was drinking Scotch.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    What kennel name does Linda have?
    I loved her interviews, particularly the second one. All those labs out at once, I loved it. Her dogs- none looked fat or overdone that I could see. And that chocolate,what a love he was! Great -thanks for sharing!
    HOME OF:
    Waterspook Sables Dark Secret, MH (Sable)
    Trumarcs Bankshot Bandit, MH ( Fats)
    Waterspook Tomfoolery, SH ( Tommie)
    IN MEMORY OF::
    Waterspook Bankshot Whiz Bang,JH (Jesse)
    Waterspooks Girl Named Bill, SH ( Billie- my princess.....)
    Waterspook Kickin' Gunshot, SH ( Boom)
    Waterspook Kickin' Good Time MH(Kick)
    Waterspooks Partner In Crime, SH ( Bouncer)
    Brush Creek Waterspook, JH, WC- my first girl.(Spooky)

  9. #39
    Senior Member Jeffrey Towler's Avatar
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    Thank you 44

  10. #40
    Senior Member suepuff's Avatar
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    Billie,

    Linda Major is Linjor Labradors. You can find them here: http://www.linjorretrievers.co.uk/

    Sue
    Sue Puffenbarger
    Wirtz, VA
    www.boynelabradors.com

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