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Thread: Judging the Labrador Retriever

  1. #41
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    Thanks I will check them out. I respect her knowledge and love for the breed...
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  2. #42
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    44, I would not say that your dog is "fat", but probably is carrying a few pounds more than he actually needs ... but he's a far cry from what I could see of the winner at Westminster, who seemed like he could drop close to 10#. There just seemed to be too much roll in the front of the dog at Westminster ... not that my opinion on that is worth much
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    Looking at her website, I see that her dogs look fit and conditioned nicely. A pleasant change!
    HOME OF:
    Waterspook Sables Dark Secret, MH (Sable)
    Trumarcs Bankshot Bandit, MH ( Fats)
    Waterspook Tomfoolery, SH ( Tommie)
    IN MEMORY OF::
    Waterspook Bankshot Whiz Bang,JH (Jesse)
    Waterspooks Girl Named Bill, SH ( Billie- my princess.....)
    Waterspook Kickin' Gunshot, SH ( Boom)
    Waterspook Kickin' Good Time MH(Kick)
    Waterspooks Partner In Crime, SH ( Bouncer)
    Brush Creek Waterspook, JH, WC- my first girl.(Spooky)

  4. #44
    Senior Member Colonel Blimp's Avatar
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    This is one of Ms Majors that went to Russia and won a few silver pots .... just from the looks as opposed to working ability and temperament which we are not in a position to judge, I don't think there's much to complain about at all. If he's got some hunting talent you could make a very nice wildfowling dog out of him; good solid old boy. I'd have him.


    Eug
    Last edited by Colonel Blimp; 03-10-2014 at 04:36 AM.
    Thank you, very kind, Mine's a pint.

  5. #45
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    Disagree with you on that type, Eug, though as you know - and saw reiterated at the weekend, porcine and preposterous appearance for "sporting breeds" ain't the exclusive province of the US of A, either.

    MG

  6. #46
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    I’m no expert regarding the breed but it does seem that the size and weight of the Lab shown in Linda’s video, in the pictures in this tread and those which I have seen on TV at Westminster would have a hard time in a Pheasant or Quail hunt let alone trying to do some of the field trail work that is done in today’s trials.
    The dogs that I have seen running hunt test or field trails over the last 12 years or so do look like what my perception of a working Labrador should be. The muzzle and forehead are about the same length. They have a strong chest that is wide enough between the front legs to provide great balance not only on uneven terrain but in rough water. Their back is straight and strong from front shoulder to back hips. Their rear legs are strong and powerful with good contour from hip joint to elbow. They are wide between the rear legs to add to their balance. Their legs are not long and wirey as a greyhound but of a good length to allow them to cover a lot of ground quickly and completely. Their webbed feet are of a good size for paddling in water. Their tail is very similar to an otter though not as wide and it does taper to a point rather than being blunt as pictured in Colonel Blimp’s picture. If the Lab is trained in a lot of water and LEARNS to use it tail to help propel and guide it through the water it has an advantage. Some do and some do not. Some carry the tip of their tail high and out of the water but when you seen it waging that does not mean that the base of the tail and the first couple of inches are not helping when it goes back and forth to propel and guide it through the water. My ideal of a good weight for a hard working Lab is males to be between 70 to 80 pounds and females between 65 and 75 pounds and that all depends on their bone structure. I think this weight allows them to handle tough terrain on a retrieve and still retain their strength. On a big 400 yard+ retriever that requires a lot of strength, if they are to heavy or to light, I think it takes a lot out of them and when they come back tired and panting like crazy it would be hard for me to send them for another hard retrieve even if it were only 150 yards or so. Sometimes I think we ask to much of them and when we have done it over and over even though they may love it, it cannot help but shorten their life just a little each time we do. When we work so hard to get them to their highest level of ability don’t we want to keep them with us as long as we can?

    I have noticed that most and I repeat MOST not all of the show dogs that have attained field trail or hunt test title only have lower level hunt test titles and very few have a field trail title. You would think that after getting all of the show titles you would want them to attain as many actual working titles as possible. Why is that?

    It is not easy to find what prefix and suffix titles are for dogs not in AKC or UKC.
    Finding what foreign titles mean is difficult. I tried to see what titles some of the dogs shown in Linda’s web site had. Maybe I’m wrong but from what I could tell from Linda’s video and from her web site it looks like all of her ribbons were show titles and all that she judges is show. For someone who is such an expert on a breed you would think that she would want to be able to understand what the dog was originally breed for and that was helping fishermen with their fishing and then changed into hard working water fowl retrievers. That means they have to be able to work hard and to me that is hard to do when they are overweight. From seeing pictures of champion show Labs and seeing a Lab run around a show ring there is no way you can tell if a dog is in good physical shape. That can only be done by doing the work it was breed for and if you cannot perform in that venue is that really a Labrador?
    Ken

    Hope you had a great training day!

  7. #47
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    To show we are not alone re our concerns on Labs we see in conformation (obviously not all of them) compared to we what we see working, the following is from Sweden:

    In 2008 the Svenska Kennelklubben (Swedish Kennel Club} produced the following publication:


    Special Breed Specific Instructions (BSI)
    Regarding exaggerations in pedigree dogs





    The task of a dog show judge is to preserve the characteristics of each breed
    within the approved breed standard. This must never be done at the expense
    of soundness or through exaggerations in conformation. It is the responsibility
    of the judge to be acquainted with the breed standard as well as health issues
    which exaggerations can cause. A judge’s main task is to judge and
    evaluate dogs outlined in the breed standards and to see the dogs as a result
    of previous generations of breeding. A judge must pay particular attention to
    tendencies to exaggerations which can have a negative effect on the health of
    individual dogs. It is important that tendencies to exaggerations are noted
    before they are allowed to give rise to unsoundness. These instructions are a result of an
    inventory made possible through extensive collaboration between dog show
    judges, breed clubs, other dog clubs and veterinary surgeons.
    The views and facts contained in this document are a result of available statistics
    on dogs’ health for individual breeds. The process was initiated by a meeting
    between ten Scandinavian all-breed judges followed by correspondence
    with the breed clubs culminating in a judges’ conference for all Swedish dog
    show judges. The survey has resulted in the current document in which 47 out of approximately
    300 recognised F.C.I breeds have been mentioned specifically with a view
    to improve their health.


    Breeds which require
    URGENT ATTENTION:
    Bulldog, Neapolitan Mastiff, Shar-Pei, Chow-Chow, Basset Hound, French Bulldog, Pekingese.


    Breeds which require
    INCREASED ATTENTION:
    Dogue de Bordeaux, Mastiff, St Bernard Dog, Bull Terrier/ Miniature Bull Terrier, Yorkshire
    Terrier, Bloodhound, Clumber Spaniel, Boston Terrier, Chihuahua (Long-haired and Smooth-haired),
    Japanese Chin, King Charles Spaniel, Pug Dog.


    Breeds which require
    ATTENTION:
    Collie (Rough-haired and Smooth-haired), German Shepherd Dog, Shetland Sheepdog,
    Welsh Corgi Cardigan, Welsh Corgi Pembroke, German Boxer, Bullmastiff, Great Dane, Norwich
    Terrier, Skye Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, West Highland White Terrier, German Spitz/
    Pomeranian, Artesian-Norman Basset, Italian Pointing Dog, Italian Wire-haired Pointing Dog,
    American Cocker Spaniel, English Cocker Spaniel, English Springer Spaniel, Labrador Retriever,
    Sussex Spaniel, Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, Chinese Crested Dog, Griffons, Shih-Tzu, Standard
    Poodle, Borzoi, Irish Wolfhound.


    Prior to each judging appointment, it is the responsibility of the judge to
    familiarise himself/herself with these specific instructions for the breed he/
    she has been invited to judge. A continuous follow-up of the development
    of the health of the breeds listed herein will be carried out, and also regular updates.


    APPLICATION:
    It is of utmost importance that each judge continues to judge positively and,
    as previously, selects winners of correct type and overall quality. The critique
    must be written in a positive form, but it is important to be precise and open
    about relevant health matters if this has affected the evaluation and/or placing
    of the dog. As previously, the judge must evaluate what he sees and deviations must be judged
    on its degree of imperfection, and no faults are linked to a certain award.
    This list must not be seen as an added list of disqualifying faults in breeds whose
    standards contain disqualifications! Exaggerations in conformation and
    faults which have an affect on the dog’s health are more serious than cosmetic
    failings. Judges should always give 0 prize to dogs with manifest abnormalities and defects.
    Frequently existing faults, not linked with health concerns and exaggeration
    of breed points in individual breeds, have not been listed here routinely, but
    must also be noted when judging. Judges are requested to consider health
    aspects to a higher degree than previously,
    particularly when awarding CK (certificate quality) or not.


    REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL DOGS:
    Breathing
    All dogs should be able to breathe normally, also when moving.
    Eyes
    All dogs should have clear eyes without any sign of discomfort.
    Skin
    All dogs should have healthy skin without any sign of discomfort.
    Coat
    The coat should not be so extensive as to impede movement.
    Movement
    All dogs should be able to move naturally without visible effort or pain.
    Temperament
    All dogs should have good temperament suitable for life in present society. Breed
    specific behaviour must be noted and allowed, but excessive shyness or sharpness
    of temperament is not desirable. Aggressive dogs and dogs showing signs of panic and/or fear should always be
    awarded 0 prize.


    The Labrador Retriever was listed as a "Breed which requires ATTENTION"
    Existing faults in this breed are:
    • obesity/overweight.
    • lameness and incorrect movement.
    Particular attention must therefore be paid to correct movement. Obesity/overweight
    must not be confused with substance.

    Glenda

  8. #48
    Member KPR's Texas Retrievers's Avatar
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    I found something that seems to stress the importance of some kind of a change in either the way a Labrador is judged in show or changing the standard in which they are judged.

    America’s favorite dog for the many years now, Labrador retrievers have done abysmally at Westminster, placing only 10 times. A Sporting Group breed, Labs was recognized by the AKC in 1917. That’s nearly 100 years in which to accomplish something.

    • Second Place (4 times): 1933, 1934, 1939, 1978
    • Fourth Place (6 times): 1964, 1974, 1986, 2003, 2009, 2010

    On the international scene the Lab has won best in show at CRUFTS 3 times however the last time was in 1937. Has time pasted them by or are we doing something wrong in our breeding aspects.

    First Place 1932, 1933 and 1937

    This does not paint a very favorable picture for show breeders. My question to them is what can be done to improve the breed? In the AKC performance competitions both hunt test and field trails the Labrador has dominated the working field.
    Ken

    Hope you had a great training day!

  9. #49
    Senior Member .44 magnum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Blimp View Post
    This is one of Ms Majors that went to Russia and won a few silver pots .... just from the looks as opposed to working ability and temperament which we are not in a position to judge, I don't think there's much to complain about at all. If he's got some hunting talent you could make a very nice wildfowling dog out of him; good solid old boy. I'd have him.


    Eug
    Great looking Labrador !
    I don't think I smell like a brewery. I was drinking Scotch.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPR's Texas Retrievers View Post
    I found something that seems to stress the importance of some kind of a change in either the way a Labrador is judged in show or changing the standard in which they are judged.

    America’s favorite dog for the many years now, Labrador retrievers have done abysmally at Westminster, placing only 10 times. A Sporting Group breed, Labs was recognized by the AKC in 1917. That’s nearly 100 years in which to accomplish something.

    • Second Place (4 times): 1933, 1934, 1939, 1978
    • Fourth Place (6 times): 1964, 1974, 1986, 2003, 2009, 2010

    On the international scene the Lab has won best in show at CRUFTS 3 times however the last time was in 1937. Has time pasted them by or are we doing something wrong in our breeding aspects.

    First Place 1932, 1933 and 1937

    This does not paint a very favorable picture for show breeders. My question to them is what can be done to improve the breed? In the AKC performance competitions both hunt test and field trails the Labrador has dominated the working field.
    KPR,

    I wouldn't gauge the value of the Lab on his record at big dog shows. He's too "normal" to be a spectacular show dog, in spite of how hard the show breeder try to goof him up! No flowing coat to get wowed about, no quirky smushed in face (yet), he's not huge, he's not tiny; he just looks too ordinary.

    You ask what can be done to improve the breed? Get back to what he was before the show fancy started exaggerating his traits to make him more "typey" and before the field breeders began to exaggerate size and speed. The standard describes a sound working retriever. If you want to stand out in the show ring or turn heads at the hunt test, breed a good looking, solidly built, honest Labrador. Regardless of the judge's opinion, you will have done the breed a favor.

    Swack
    Jeff Swackhamer

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