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Thread: Judges Question - Derby

  1. #41
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    From the time I ran my first minor stake (1985) till now, judges have used there own common (or uncommon) sense to handle situations such as this in minor stakes. For Pete's sake. If the dog is sitting rock steady and a nervous handler, through habit or otherwise slips up and says a quiet "sit"... To a dog that is clearly already sitting and making no moves to go anywhere, just judge the damn dog and enjoy the weather already.

    We already have too many nitpickers in the game, especially in the minor stakes, who can ruin a good day in a heartbeat.

    The first time I made such a blunder as a young handler, after the dog left the line I sheepishly looked around at the judges and asked "did you hear that?" A grizzled old veteran judge peered at me over his glasses and said "yep. Don't let it happen again".

    Lesson learned.
    Mine was worse, and to this day I admire the two that judged this nervous newbie that day and coached me through it. Judges like that encourage new blood and show newbies that the sport isn't as cold blooded as it can seem.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles C. View Post
    My interpretation is that in minor stakes talking to your dog before your number is called is a controlled break. All else being equal, I might use it to separate 2 dogs, but I would never drop a dog from 1st or 2nd to a JAM where the talking was limited and didn't actually involve an all out break.
    Here is what the rulebook says:

    (9) The Judges should agree in advance as to the extent of movement which shall be considered “creeping,’’ short of breaking, and whether working dogs so offend-ing shall be ordered brought to heel before being sent to retrieve. Also, in the minor stakes, where “controlled’’ breaks are permissible, the Judges should reach an agreement about the degree they will consider a “controlled’’ break in contrast to one which will eliminate the dog from further competition; also, they should be in agreement about the severity of the penalties to assess for various degrees of “controlled’’ breaks.
    Once I got a 2nd in a derby after a controlled break in the 2nd series. We probably won, and I was half hoping to walk away with the Blue. We got RED. So I'm thinking the judges hurt us for the controlled break. That's probably how I would handle it. I would not move a dog from 1st or 2nd down to JAM unless there was very very little separation between dogs on marking. I certainly would not drop the dog completely.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  3. #43
    Senior Member waycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpgar View Post
    in judging it is about the dogs....and their work. Perfect work should always be rewarded. The rule books has plenty of latitude for judges to allow this.
    ^^^^ this !!!!
    Steve Lithgow
    Las Cruces, NM
    "The thing that makes them good... is the thing that makes them bad" ~Pete Richardson Marble Mtn Walkers, Vermont
    "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.... " ~Ron Schaitel
    "What's the difference between a pro and an amateur..... ""About a tenth of a second"" ~Bill Gibbons
    "Ugh... my dog broke....! ""There's never been one worth a flip that hasn't"" ~John Steger

  4. #44
    Senior Member waycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Fact is, let them get in my grill and get it off their chest. If a judge can't handle that, you probably shouldn't judge...
    Adage... If you want a lot of friends in Field Trials... Don't WIN and Don't JUDGE.
    Steve Lithgow
    Las Cruces, NM
    "The thing that makes them good... is the thing that makes them bad" ~Pete Richardson Marble Mtn Walkers, Vermont
    "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.... " ~Ron Schaitel
    "What's the difference between a pro and an amateur..... ""About a tenth of a second"" ~Bill Gibbons
    "Ugh... my dog broke....! ""There's never been one worth a flip that hasn't"" ~John Steger

  5. #45
    Senior Member waycool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    From the time I ran my first minor stake (1985) till now, judges have used there own common (or uncommon) sense to handle situations such as this in minor stakes. For Pete's sake. If the dog is sitting rock steady and a nervous handler, through habit or otherwise slips up and says a quiet "sit"... To a dog that is clearly already sitting and making no moves to go anywhere, just judge the damn dog and enjoy the weather already.

    We already have too many nitpickers in the game, especially in the minor stakes, who can ruin a good day in a heartbeat.

    The first time I made such a blunder as a young handler, after the dog left the line I sheepishly looked around at the judges and asked "did you hear that?" A grizzled old veteran judge peered at me over his glasses and said "yep. Don't let it happen again".

    Lesson learned.
    This is VERY good and good on you Bill ! The best part is in bold but all of it is worth reading IMO I wish this forum had an "I agree" or "Like" button .. LOL

    In life, the times we give encouragement and positive influence on others are a faded memory to us.. but to the individual we helped or encouraged they can be invaluable and vivid. As Bill wonderfully described his vivid memory of that judge "yep. Don't let it happen again" I have many of those as well.. and hope I have done that enough for others in that respect.
    Steve Lithgow
    Las Cruces, NM
    "The thing that makes them good... is the thing that makes them bad" ~Pete Richardson Marble Mtn Walkers, Vermont
    "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.... " ~Ron Schaitel
    "What's the difference between a pro and an amateur..... ""About a tenth of a second"" ~Bill Gibbons
    "Ugh... my dog broke....! ""There's never been one worth a flip that hasn't"" ~John Steger

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mike Peters-labguy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    From the time I ran my first minor stake (1985) till now, judges have used there own common (or uncommon) sense to handle situations such as this in minor stakes. For Pete's sake. If the dog is sitting rock steady and a nervous handler, through habit or otherwise slips up and says a quiet "sit"... To a dog that is clearly already sitting and making no moves to go anywhere, just judge the damn dog and enjoy the weather already.

    We already have too many nitpickers in the game, especially in the minor stakes, who can ruin a good day in a heartbeat.

    The first time I made such a blunder as a young handler, after the dog left the line I sheepishly looked around at the judges and asked "did you hear that?" A grizzled old veteran judge peered at me over his glasses and said "yep. Don't let it happen again".

    Lesson learned.

    Maybe this is wrong but I think I would do the same as Bill. I try to use as much common sense as possible when judging. I remember the first time I ran an AKC Qual I was so nervous I tapped my leg and may have said here as the marks were going off. My dog did great on the marks and one of the judges asked me after my dog was back if this was my first Field Trial and I told him it was. He then reminded me I could not tap my leg or talk as the birds were going down. I thanked him and earned a jam! If he would have dropped me without an explanation I might not have ever ran again.
    Mike Peters

  7. #47
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    The year was 1965, the place Madison Wisconsin, the guy 22 years old with a Golden he trained himself in city parks and golf course ponds and some gravel pits. This guy paid his $15. and entered a licensed derby. The first three series went great (don't know if I was winning) the last series was a water double . I told my dog to stay with a "obedience" left hand across the face stay, clipping the dogs nose with my little finger by accident. They gave me my number , she went out and pinned the marks. As I gave the last bird to the judge, he pulled me aside and said they were dropping me because I intimidated my dog when I nervously hit the dog with my finger on the stay command. The dog had been rock solid the entire trial. I walked away shaking my head wondering how I got involved in this silly field trial game!

    Many derbies have went by , with a number of dogs and we have done well over the years in the derby. I have judged so many derbies I really don't remember how many, the last one was judged last summer 2013. Everytime I judge a little voice goes off in my head (only one voice, not many haha) especially in the derby always give the benefit to the dog. There have been many disappointments over the years in all the stakes, derby through the all-age stakes, but, we have been lucky too with good breaks so I guess it averages out. Having said that I have never forgot the judges or the total lack of compassion of those two judges towards a newcomer in the game. Always give the benefit to the dog especially in the derby!
    Earl Dillow

  8. #48
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    I don't think it is fair to judge the Newbs differently than the experienced Am or the Pro. If you are going to DQ or penalize a Pro for a behavior, either handler error or error of the dog, then the same action should DQ the Newb.

    If a handler says "sit" to discourage head swinging or whatever, you can't over look that in the Newb but penalize the pro.

    So if the handler says "sit" to the dog but not necessarily to control a break, what is the penalty in the Derby? I guess this was Ted's original question.

    There has to be a penalty, otherwise we will all be up there whispering to our dogs in hopes of an advantage.

    That said, there are methods within the rules that allow the handler to focus the dog on a particular mark. I guess the old hands are going to be using these methods as this is what will fly in the upper stakes.
    Renee P

  9. #49
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    The old hands don't need those methods... They have a hundred others...
    Bill Davis

  10. #50
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Ted, I see what you did - threw the $100 question out there to douse bluehen's $100.00 entry fee brouhaha. Hail thee fellow, well played for the noblesse oblige!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Ireland View Post
    I always appreciated the judges allowing us to continue and I think in the younger stakes there needs to be a little help.
    If you can't help me, don't hurt me. Don't think most folk running derby need any help in hurting themselves, either, when they come to the line - as has been amply documented in this thread.

    As for WWFD - What Would Fallon Do? - think Marse John was judging one of the last derbies I ran, six or seven years ago, and his "solution" was to throw a couple of out-of-order fliers at us! In the derby! Bravo, John - that'll teach them anxiety-riddled dogs and their handlers to squirm around on their (our) sphincters to the brink of breaking - or being broken...

    MG

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