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Thread: Judges Question - Derby

  1. #101
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    John, you can't use a chosen PART of a paragraph to draw a conclusion. The paragraph begins with, "If a dog on line creeps or jumps forward short of breaking ...". This dog did neither so your quoted admonition does not apply.

    JS

    You cannot have a "controlled break" without a break to control. Nothing this dog did indicates an intent to retrieve. The handler's fault was talking to the dog before the judge released him.
    Last edited by JS; 03-07-2014 at 11:54 AM.
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  2. #102
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    I believe a judge may afford lenience to a derby DOG on a consistent and limited basis.

    As far as the HANDLER, how can you justify preferential treatment to anyone; pro/amateur, tall/short, fat/skinny, old/young, etc.??? True, the derby is an entry level stake and we're here to have fun but knowing the rules of the game you're playing is pretty basic. This ain't T-ball.

    JS
    I agree. In the derby you should be just as generous as you can be to all throughout. It would scare me to start thinking "X is new, so let's let that slide". It is a slippery slope, IMO.

    I am usually totally clueless who the handler that goes with a dog number even is until the ribbons are given out and I kind of like it that way.

  3. #103
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    I agree. In the derby you should be just as generous as you can be to all throughout. It would scare me to start thinking "X is new, so let's let that slide". It is a slippery slope, IMO.

    I am usually totally clueless who the handler that goes with a dog number even is until the ribbons are given out and I kind of like it that way.
    I have encountered total, nervous newbies a few times, typically running their first derby. When I see how nervous they are I do my best to calm them down. Many times they have a very nice dog, but it is obvious they are lacking in the handling department and are making things way harder than they need to be. I am sensitive to the fact that we are in competition here and I don't want to give any kind of competitive advantage to one handler over another, but I also realize this particular dog and handler are not likely to even be around to the end at this trial, but if I make the handler's experience a positive one, he or she may stick with training and come back a better handler next time.

  4. #104
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Its called analysis paralysis. Many judges have been afflicted with it. (and more than a few forum users)
    Bill Davis

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    John, you can't use a chosen PART of a paragraph to draw a conclusion. The paragraph begins with, "If a dog on line creeps or jumps forward short of breaking ...". This dog did neither so your quoted admonition does not apply.

    JS

    You cannot have a "controlled break" without a break to control. Nothing this dog did indicates an intent to retrieve. The handler's fault was talking to the dog before the judge released him.
    How far are you going to go with this?

    What if the dog has broken its sit and is leaning forward when the handler says sit? Or Broke its sit and raised 1 front leg while leaning forward...?
    Or was "creeping short of breaking" when the handler said here and the dog returned. No creep line had been indicated but if they followed the book they had decided where it was.
    Had the handler done nothing the dog may have returned on it's own
    In any of these cases would it have been a controlled break ? Or was it another case of the handler talking to the dog ?

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 03-07-2014 at 04:26 PM.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Robinson View Post
    I have encountered total, nervous newbies a few times, typically running their first derby. When I see how nervous they are I do my best to calm them down. Many times they have a very nice dog, but it is obvious they are lacking in the handling department and are making things way harder than they need to be. I am sensitive to the fact that we are in competition here and I don't want to give any kind of competitive advantage to one handler over another, but I also realize this particular dog and handler are not likely to even be around to the end at this trial, but if I make the handler's experience a positive one, he or she may stick with training and come back a better handler next time.
    Over the years i have watched a lot of mishandles, only once did I tell a handler to relax "this is not a timed event" as Pete Lane had done for me many years previous -

    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    Its called analysis paralysis. Many judges have been afflicted with it. (and more than a few forum users)
    Over the years I don't know how many little (Derby) dogs I started & at some point in their career decided we were both wasting our time -
    But in all cases you learn something - The one thing that is universal & doesn't seem to change is the inability of Trial Sponsoring clubs to pick
    judges for their Derby's that are qualified to be there -
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    How far are you going to go with this?

    What if the dog has broken its sit and is leaning forward when the handler says sit? Or Broke its sit and raised 1 front leg while leaning forward...?
    Or was "creeping short of breaking" when the handler said here and the dog returned. No creep line had been indicated but if they followed the book they had decided where it was.
    Had the handler done nothing the dog may have returned on it's own
    In any of these cases would it have been a controlled break ? Or was it another case of the handler talking to the dog ?

    john
    TED wrote: "Here's a hypothetical. Derby. Last series. Dog has run nearly perfect three series. On last bird down in fourth series. Dogs eyes flick --handler is in training mode. Quietly says "sit", Handler realizes mistake. Judge gives dog a number. Dog is sent for the go bird. As dog is returning judge asks handler if he wants to continue and pick up memory bird. Handler says of course and sends dog for memory bird. Absolutely perfect fourth series.

    John, I may be misinterpreting the underlined section above; however, I would expect dog to be focused on the last bird down and be ready to move if it were going to break, not flick its eyes to another bird...yes I am interpreting "flick" as to mean off the last bird and I may be wrong. I wasn't at line and so only have the written account and the judges' comments to draw from. Nowhere in the account quoted above is there any mention of body movement and the judges read the situation as "talking to dog while birds are being thrown".

    Could the judges have been more lenient and marked the situation in their books as "controlled break"? Perhaps, or perhaps not, it depends on everything their eyes ears and senses took in throughout the test and most importantly to be fair to all competitors if they truly believed this was a C.B..
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by blind ambition View Post
    TED wrote: "Here's a hypothetical. Derby. Last series. Dog has run nearly perfect three series. On last bird down in fourth series. Dogs eyes flick --handler is in training mode. Quietly says "sit", Handler realizes mistake. Judge gives dog a number. Dog is sent for the go bird. As dog is returning judge asks handler if he wants to continue and pick up memory bird. Handler says of course and sends dog for memory bird. Absolutely perfect fourth series.

    John, I may be misinterpreting the underlined section above; however, I would expect dog to be focused on the last bird down and be ready to move if it were going to break, not flick its eyes to another bird...yes I am interpreting "flick" as to mean off the last bird and I may be wrong. I wasn't at line and so only have the written account and the judges' comments to draw from. Nowhere in the account quoted above is there any mention of body movement and the judges read the situation as "talking to dog while birds are being thrown".

    Could the judges have been more lenient and marked the situation in their books as "controlled break"? Perhaps, or perhaps not, it depends on everything their eyes ears and senses took in throughout the test and most importantly to be fair to all competitors if they truly believed this was a C.B..
    The dog got a JAM. Either the judges decided to ignore the rules about talking to the dog during the prohibited time frame, or in retrospect decided that it was in fact a CB.

    john
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    The dog got a JAM. Either the judges decided to ignore the rules about talking to the dog during the prohibited time frame, or in retrospect decided that it was in fact a CB.

    john

    Now you are onto something, like I said in my first post on this situation "I feel sorry for the judges". It appears there was a degree of gallery influence which placed the judges in a "catch 22" position regarding their awarding of ribbons. But happily we can all agree that the section in the rules covering breaking etc. is prefaced by a requirement for visible indication of forward movement on the part of the dog not an "eye flick".
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by GaryJ View Post
    My very first Senior Hunt test on the first series had an out of order flyer. Failed that one. I was told that it was rare at that level to have out of order flyers. On our 4th test it happened again. We were more prepared and we passed that one picking the flyer up last as the memory bird.
    Same happened to me in the Senior test needed to get my boys title. I to that point, for various reasons, had not trained on out of order flyers. Before calling me to the line one of the judges turned and asked how I was doing today. I said "well, since he's never seen an out of order flyer, I'll have to let you know in a few minutes". Obviously the last thing I wanted to see in the first series of the test to title was something we'd never trained on. Particularly since my boy really likes his flyers.

    Fortunately the marks were well separated and he never flinched, acted like he'd done this every day, and went out and stepped on both marks and did title that day.
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