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Thread: Judges Question - Derby

  1. #11
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Since the handler told the dog to sit, it would be a controlled break in my book. I would put it in the category of moderate faults that were so slight as to be considered only a minor fault. Based on what was said above, I don't think this would take the dog from first to JAM, but I'd have to see it.

    Had something similar happen to me in a Q with my creeper. Every series in both the Am and Q that day the dog crept, but he is not a breaker so I never said anything, but the judges were pretty consistently telling me to re-heel my dog. Last series of the Q in which we were doing very well birds went down, dog crept a couple of feet and stopped. The judges didn't call my number and I *thought* I heard them tell me to re-heel my dog, so I told him to heel. When he was back by my side, they called my number and he nailed the marks. At the placements, we got a JAM and the judges told me that if it were not for our controlled break, we would have gotten a very nice placement. I started to ask "what controlled break" and then it hit me what happened.

    I also told my dog to sit once when it head swung in an AM. Judges let me get the birds, but unfortunately they heard me. Oh well, It happens.

  2. #12
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    A number of years ago I had driven half the night to get to the trial. Upon arriving the marshall instructed me that they were waiting on me as I was dog number 1. Unloaded my guy and aired him and to the line we went. Go bird was thrown at 25 yards and my guy was gone. With some frustration I reheeled him and the judge called my number, me figuring we had driven half the night and were out on the first series 20 minutes there. The judges allowed the controlled break and we went on to run 3 series. I did control the dog but he was into jet mode and was wanting the short bird. I always appreciated the judges allowing us to continue and I think in the younger stakes there needs to be a little help.
    ENJOY THE JOURNEY!!!

  3. #13
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    This is more of a question for you guys than a statement. As a contestant I think it pays to know.

    Once the mistake was made the dog's performance is now relative to the other dogs in the field, right? Could affect nothing, could drop the dog a couple of places, could eliminate any ribbon at all, it depends on the performance of the top 5-6 dogs, doesn't it?

    Is there something customary that if a dog finishes the trial it get a JAM? I don't think I've seen that in the trials I ran/attended.

    I know in a hunting test situation I certainly would never have had that conversation with a contestant, were I a judge. Just opens up too much scrutiny (as evidenced by the thread appearing here to begin with).
    Darrin Greene

  4. #14
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Field trial judges should be generous with callbacks (when possible) and awarding Judge's Award of Merit, PARTICULARLY in minor stakes (Derby and Qualifying)

  5. #15
    Senior Member Miriam Wade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    What is the definition of controlled break? Did the dog have a controlled break? Thinking that the dog may break is not a controlled break. I would have dropped the dog. Handler made a mistake.

    My opinion is based on my HT experience as I have no FT experience.

    Ted what is your opinion?
    A controlled break is when a dog has either crept out to a point where the judges ask you to re-heel the dog OR when a dog is actually breaking to retrieve, but is brought back under control by the handler. It also is considered a controlled break even if the dog has made no forward motion, but the handler gives a command before being released by the judges.

    I ran my first Master with my old dog Kate many years ago. I had been running NAHRA. Kate was very good on line and breaking was never something I worried about. In NAHRA-even at the Master level, you were allowed to quietly talk to your dog. Sometimes I would out of habit. We came to line at the AKC Master and as the last bird was shot in the first series, I quietly whispered "Sit". Tap on the shoulder and the judge said, "Sorry". I was soooo disappointed and my poor dog drove a long way never to be rewarded with a bird. But, in that instance, the rules dictated that's what the judge had to do.

    Again, in the Derby and the Q it's not an eliminating fault in and of itself. If at the end of the day you have two dogs with equal work you have to look at all the little dings against them to make a decision, but what a shame to reward a dog with inferior marks to a dog that simply had a controlled break.

    M
    "You can put pressure on a dog, you can’t take it back…"

    Mitch Patterson '07

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Charles C.'s Avatar
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    My interpretation is that in minor stakes talking to your dog before your number is called is a controlled break. All else being equal, I might use it to separate 2 dogs, but I would never drop a dog from 1st or 2nd to a JAM where the talking was limited and didn't actually involve an all out break.

  7. #17
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    The rules say that a Derby dog who has a controlled break shall be penalized. The rules also say that a judge should assume that a dog attempted to break, if the handler makes an effort to stop his dog.

    The rules also say that the Derby dog is expected to be reasonably (not totally) steady.

    The way I read the rules, the handler perceived his dog was breaking and brought it under immediate control. This unsteadiness should be penalized, but since the Derby dog is not expected to be totally steady, how it affects the placements depends on how close this dog's other work was in relation to the competition.

    From P. 33 of the Standard:

    "In any stake other than an All-Age stake, if a dog makes a slight break and is brought immediately under control, the dog need not be eliminated, but shall be penalized for unsteadiness...

    "If a dog on line creeps or jumps forward short of breaking as birds are shot and no effort is made by the handler to stop and restrain him, the Judges should not interpret such as a deliberate intent to retrieve, since nothing was done to stop the dog. On the other hand, if the handler does make an effort to stop the dog, the Judges should assume that the handler believed the dog intended to retrieve and should deal with such infraction accordingly."

    From p. 53 of the standard:
    "A “reasonable’’ degree of steadiness and general obedience are the requirements in Derby stakes. "
    Renee P

  8. #18
    Senior Member tzappia's Avatar
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    The one thing I hate is seeing a Minor stakes judge think they need to treat/judge these young dogs like they're running in the Open, All-Age stakes. Give me a break!
    Tony C. Zappia
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    FTCH Adirondac Tea for Two WC, ** (Tea), 2009 GRCA National Specialty Derby win, Open Win
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  9. #19
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miriam Wade View Post
    A controlled break is when a dog has either crept out to a point where the judges ask you to re-heel the dog OR when a dog is actually breaking to retrieve, but is brought back under control by the handler.
    M
    In Field Trials creeping short of breaking and breaking (deliberate intent to retrieve) and different situations and are handled differently. Judges are not obligated to ask a creeping dog to be reheeled although most do and asking that the dog be reheeled does not elevate the infraction to the point of a controlled break.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post

    You're a licensed judge, John. What would you do based on the information given, and why would you do so?

    I'd like to hear from as many licensed judges as possible on this scenario.-Paul
    The part of the rule in question is "Judge insists that dog wasn't going to break "

    In the Derby and the Q, the AKC allows for a controled break and further clarifies it to mean that the handler as in this situation "thought" that the dog was breaking as the talking indicated this to be so. Based on the information, the dog would remain under judgement and if based on its marks it was alone in first place it would win the field trial.

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 03-06-2014 at 08:38 AM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

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