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Thread: Judges Question - Derby

  1. #21
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    In the clip below substitute the first"is" with "sit"

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0
    Last edited by huntinman; 03-06-2014 at 01:05 PM.
    Bill Davis

  2. #22
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    The one thing I really like about this story is the part where the other handlers and marshal stepped up in defense of this team. Doing so may well have convinced the judges to place this dog ahead of one of the ones who stepped up. That kind of sportsmanship is one of the great things about this game.

  3. #23
    Senior Member waycool's Avatar
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    Ah... Now I remember this all too well.. Positive or negative judging.. you make the call.. Every time I judged I focused on being positive.. AND making sure the best dog (the one I would like to own!) within the rules was put up. I understand some things are black and white.. others not so much but having put up the best dog is the correct result and the right message. IMHO. (remember my experience is in pointing dogs fwiw)

    Good discussion fwiw.. certainly will be helpful to other judges and future judges

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    The one thing I really like about this story is the part where the other handlers and marshal stepped up in defense of this team.
    BUT where was the co-judge?

    The handler/dog was given a number. At that point they are still in competition. As the co-judge I would tell the handler to pick-up the other bird and my partner and I would sort out the details.

    Tim

    PS: If as posted the details would which color ribbon!
    Last edited by Tim Carrion; 03-06-2014 at 09:47 AM.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Miriam Wade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    In Field Trials creeping short of breaking and breaking (deliberate intent to retrieve) and different situations and are handled differently. Judges are not obligated to ask a creeping dog to be reheeled although most do and asking that the dog be reheeled does not elevate the infraction to the point of a controlled break.
    Thanks Ed. I knew they weren't required to ask the dog to re-heel, but I didn't know that asking them to do didn't elevate it to a controlled break.

    M
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    I would like to start with a discussion of overall philosophy, before digging into the scenario.

    First, I believe that if you are interested in growing the sport, you have to encourage new comers. By and large, this happens in the minor stakes. I posted some time ago about a derby that Ray Vreeland and I judged at North Platte, where we discussed with the handlers - after the series was over - the factors in the marks and how they could have better handled their dogs. I have seen two or three of those participants at different field trials and have to believe their experience at North Platte contributed to their interest in the sport.

    Second, I believe that in all stakes - you make the tests as hard as you can for the field - and you make call backs as generous as time permits.

    * As a judge, time is always the enemy. Time must be factored into everything, including call backs. But, if you are relentless about time, you give yourself room to be generous. I know of no contestant that likes easy tests with hard callbacks - but, they frequently occur when you have judges that don't understand dogs and are lazy about time.

    When you make the tests hard, contestants are challenged. Most contestants want to be challenged, they want to compete, that's why they chose Field Trials. So challenge them, but be as generous as you can

    Third
    , so in the minor stakes, I would be tough, but generous (and more generous than in the All Age Stakes). In the qualifying and derby, if there were no serious faults - and I had time - I would bring you back.

    Fourth
    , so I start with the underlying philosophy that I want to let the people play in the minors

    Personally, I view this as a controlled break. The Rule Book defines the conduct as a break. As Mitty properly notes, the Rule Book states:
    On the other hand, if the handler does make an effort to stop the dog, the Judges should assume that the handler believed the dog intended to retrieve and should deal with such infraction accordingly.
    This handler made an effort to stop the dog. As a judge, I am not responsible for evaluating whether the dog might not have gone. The Rule Book tells me that I should assume the dog intended to retrieve.

    This means:
    1. Dog intended to retrieve
    2. Handler made effort to stop dog from retrieving
    3. Dog did not retrieve

    Therefore, in my mind, the dog had a controlled break

    As for placements, I don't know. I hate hypothetical situations that tell you that the dog marked "perfectly". What is perfect? What about style? What about overall line manners? What about mouth? Most people judge from the gallery with a very limited perspective.

    So, I offer no opinion on placements, etc.

    For those of you that are interested, Terry Rotschafer and I have written a two part article on "Picking a Winner" for Retrievers Online.

    Ted
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    The one thing I really like about this story is the part where the other handlers and marshal stepped up in defense of this team. Doing so may well have convinced the judges to place this dog ahead of one of the ones who stepped up. That kind of sportsmanship is one of the great things about this game.
    Penn

    You might want to reconsider this and think about this more globally. I don't think we want handlers to feel that they have the liberty to lobby judges for placements and/or call backs. If there is a concern, it should be relayed to the marshal, who in turn may discuss it with the judges. In this case, you are supportive of lobbying the judges. What about the next time, when someone less justified starts lobbying them?

    Ted
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  8. #28
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Penn

    You might want to reconsider this and think about this more globally. I don't think we want handlers to feel that they have the liberty to lobby judges for placements and/or call backs. If there is a concern, it should be relayed to the marshal, who in turn may discuss it with the judges. In this case, you are supportive of lobbying the judges. What about the next time, when someone less justified starts lobbying them?

    Ted
    No, I wasn't focusing on the process and completely understand that folks are often bugging the marshals about being dropped, etc. I was just appreciating the spirit and camaraderie that exists but is too often not pointed out, usually because of the actions of a very small minority of folks.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    No, I wasn't focusing on the process and completely understand that folks are often bugging the marshals about being dropped, etc. I was just appreciating the spirit and camaraderie that exists but is too often not pointed out, usually because of the actions of a very small minority of folks.

    One thing to bug the marshal. Another to bug the judges. It's hard enough to find good judges as it is. If we allow the contestants to get into their grill, it will be even harder. We need to protect the process
    Competition does not build character - It reveals it.

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  10. #30
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    One thing to bug the marshal. Another to bug the judges. It's hard enough to find good judges as it is. If we allow the contestants to get into their grill, it will be even harder. We need to protect the process
    If a judge doesn't know the rules, that IS the process. Ask the marshal to question it. Or have them discuss it etc...

    You don't just go away and let ignorant judges make ignorant decisions if they are blatantly wrong about the rules.



    I had an 8 pt judge exclaim "that's too bad" when I handled on a bird I had previously picked up during a re-run. The dog picked all the other birds up clean.

    Lucky for me, I had the rule book in my pocket, showed it to him and went on to win that AM. (I had the book in my pocket because I thought I may have to handle on the re- run and I also suspected the judge wouldn't know the rule)
    Bill Davis

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