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Nahra , akc. Hrc ??

13K views 78 replies 30 participants last post by  Hambone 
#1 ·
With all the AKC gun dog tests filling up so fast and huge numbers:

Would you GunDog folks think this may be a good opportunity for NAHRA and HRC to take "back" some market share???

I'm sure Frank and company are on this but just thought I'd put it out there...

Full disclosure I started with NAHRA in '84

Has the MN title opened the door for competition ???
 
#3 ·
Not sure the sky is falling... But the AKC did jump on the coattails of NAHRA and HRC to establish their program.....

Thought I'd pose the question....


Answer to your question.....NAHRA was the first GunDog testing body... Argumently with HRC
 
#10 ·
It's not a "grounds" issue. The bottom line is that the AKC is the 2 Ton Gorilla in the room. Breeders want the AKC titles. (Whether they mean anything more or less than the other HT titles or not). Once the AKC jumped into the HT game, it was just a matter of time before NAHRA suffered (don't know enough about HRC to comment, haven't been around it).
AKC doesn't recognize NAHRA or HRC titles. So many folks who have to choose one over the other choose AKC.

So, it's a demand issue. You can only realistically have so many dogs at a test on a given day... This has been discussed ad nauseum... They can fix it if they want to. Anything can be done if the WILL is there.
 
#5 ·
our hrc club will run ~120 dogs the next two days. 40 started, 20 seasoned and 60 finished both days. 240 tests to run in two days. though ours is a nicely attended test, the numbers have nothing to do with "filled up" master tests.
 
#20 ·
And today my club is running 12 finished, 5 seasoned, and 6 started dogs. One less tomorrow. My guess is this will be our last HRC event. Three weeks ago 60 master and I don't recall the other numbers. Now we are at the end of the world so a lot of people just won't travel that far south, but FIVE times as many will make the trip for ALC as HRC. The majority of our entries in this HRC are our own club members even though there are two other HRC clubs in the state. They appear to not be willing to drive 2-4 hours for a test.
 
#6 ·
It's a numbers issue..... NAHRA doesn't have this problem because nobody enters NAHRA tests...

Thus giving them more room for entries..... That they don't have .

Simple supply and demand..

P.S. Not trying to argue just inquiring.
 
#13 ·
HRC is already there, it may become my venue of choice. No catching up here, plenty of tests and has more realistic hunting situations. I have spent 13 years in AKC HT and will seriously switch venues based on how 2014 works out and what the rules committee decides. NARHA on the other hand has the catching up to do because of the lack in the numbers of tests in this region.
 
#15 · (Edited)
NAHRA is still viable in AK. It's just as fun, and you see alot of the same folks and same dogs as at AKC- but we have no HRC events, I don't think. NAHRA would have to function as a registry- so breeders could offer pedigrees with titles to prospective buyers, in order to really gain ground, or else the UKC/HRC or AKC would have to recognize their titles... NAHRA in some ways seems more of a hunters venue than the others, which seem to be composed of more dog people than hunters, ie- people who would be doing agility or OB or herding what have you if their breed of choice weren't retrievers, I know that looks inconsistent with my first sentence... My point is, NAHRA brings out people who wouldn't otherwise be interested in dog games.
 
#16 · (Edited)
HRC is not as prevalent in the North East as other parts of the country. NAHRA is around but limited in venues. I'd consider both if they were in the area and AKC continued to close out so fast with entry problems. However, if NAHRA wants to compete they must have on line entry. If they don't then the more irrelevant they become. Competition is what creates innovation and new ideas which is what NAHRA needs to grow and stay around.

As for AKC, access to property,volunteerism and costs are factored similarly for HRC and NAHRA. These elements will continue to challenge clubs across all groups.

The disturbance for all AKC clubs is the rules concerning MN which is putting undue pressure on the clubs and all those trying to qualify and get there. It's kinda ironic that HT got away from the FT one winner format and now one event MN format is what is turning what was working on it's head. Seems to me if you can fix that problem we are back to a more level playing field for everyone.
 
#18 ·
Both lack one major thing to make them nearly as popular as AKC......a registry that anyone cares about. UKC is a distant, distant, distant second to AKC and the mainstream just doesn't care about UKC/HRC in that regard.
Not knocking HRC, that is where I started and it is always fun. HRC has its own set of problems and they are equal to AKC in those terms.
 
#24 ·
Both lack one major thing to make them nearly as popular as AKC......a registry that anyone cares about. UKC is a distant, distant, distant second to AKC and the mainstream just doesn't care about UKC/HRC in that regard.
Not knocking HRC, that is where I started and it is always fun. HRC has its own set of problems and they are equal to AKC in those terms.
In the big scheme of things, who really cares about the registry as far as HT titles go anyway? If most folks are really honest with themselves when they look at a pedigree they are not looking for MH's... They are looking for FT titles anyway...
 
#21 ·
i love how NAHRA and HRC like to take that route and then complain about success. Yes more non hunters play AKC than the others two venues, but many more of us are bird hunters. NONE of the venues come close to putting on a real days hunt, nor is anyone better for hunters than the other.
 
#22 ·
yeah, but as a registry the UKC, regardless of there second rate status has always been about sporting dogs, was founded specifically to register pit bulldogs and then coonhounds- so the claims they make regarding HRC are fair, as are NAHRA's claims. and then they are supposed to be tests, not canned hunts. but, the bottom line is- they do not draw dog people like the AKC does, and so it doesn't matter about online event entry, or land, or limits in masters. Dog people drive dog games, not hunters, regardless what the activity in question is descended from. NAHRA marketed themselves to hunters, and has a representative market share in the dog game world, comprised primarily of hunters who like running dogs. UKC/HRC offers a legitimate registry, with roots grown in sporting competition, and have "successfully" parlayed that into a corresponding market share, appealing to sportsmen and dog people both. AKC is an unstoppable force in the purebred dog world, and has a corresponding marketshare- populated mainly by dog folk, some of whom hunt, some of whom don't.
 
#30 ·
"At least you know the two MH litter can hunt" Badbullgator

Corey, you make some good points....

However I would disagree with this statement...

you've been around long enough to know when these GunDog games started the best were out of/by field trial stock.....
 
#37 ·
You won't argue that at all and never have. My point is there are very, very good dogs out of HT dogs. Of course they all have FT dogs somewhere along the line.
This thread is not about this so I won't derail from the OT
 
#33 ·
I believe that weekend AKC HTs are filling because there is now a huge demand for an entry into the Master National. Just look at the almost exponential number of entries in the MN since 2008-9. It takes 6 passes over the period of August 1 to July 31 each year to get in each year and this increases entries in weekend HTs. You only have to qualify once for the HRC Grand.
 
#39 ·
Some very good points have been made... As Bill stated the AKC is the 900 pound gorilla in the room...

However, if these dog games were a business (some would argue they are) it just seems like there is an opportunity to take some market share from the industry leader....

some say that the clubs are at capacity. These same clubs are complaining that their members can't enter their own events......
If the goal is to run your dog there is an option.....

If the goal is a title that shows on an AKC pedigree there is an option for that as well...

Daimler and Benz invented the automobile.....Henry Ford figured out a way to make it available to the masses.....Detroit went into bankruptcy.......

i don't have any skin in this game but the problem with GunDog tests is a good one........

Randy
 
#41 ·
It is a business, but the heart of the business is run by volunteers. Profit is motivation and club profit is not individual profit. If someone could figure out how to hold test and personally make money the vacuum would fill, but most people who run clubs are not interested in filling the void by donating there time anymore than they already do.

The heart of the matter is AKC and MN are successful beyond their highest expectations. The funny thing is AKC could care less about HT. The reason AKC test are filing is because of the MN. That is what the majority of the people entering the filled limited test are interested in. They just don't care about the other venues. HRC and NHRA don't offer an event that MOST retriever enthusiast are interested in. That is not to say that either of them are bad, just that the gorilla has the lions share of participants. They are not interested in just running test, they want to run test to qualify for a greater event the others can't offer.
I have run the Grand and loved it. I would do it again, but given the choice of MN and the Grand I will take the MN.
 
#43 ·
I have noticed that AKC has been copying HRC of late. This isn't a bad thing, actually rather smart. We now have requirements in AKC that judges actually have to run and qualify dogs to maintain judge status. AKC also now has a Higher title than just MH that is attained at a National event like HRC. AKC now has extended the recommended max distance to match HRC. Now if AKC would just get the MN club to hold 2 events a year that would help a lot especially if they are on opposite coasts.

AKC and HRC are different and one can be harder or easier depending on the dog and handler and region.
As an example my dog has never failed a Nahra test, Failed 1 Master, and 3 HRC Finished.

There is a HRC club in AK Interior Alaska HRC http://www.iagda.org/ Fairbanks AK.

They are all just different games we play with our dogs. They show us things about ourselves and our dogs, They bring us together with other people and give us a chance to help newbies and learn more from more experienced people. I like all the venues and play them all (haven't been to a SRS event yet but want to). I would like to see more of all events.
 
#45 ·
Ken you really have it figured out. We are some what lucky in that the club owns the grounds we just need to find judges, workers and such.
 
#46 ·
Like Ken I have done this many times for NAHRA and HRC. Our club has been affiliated with all three at various times and I have worked all but one AKC/HT, but not organized them. Our AKC tests have been small and we were not Master National members until now. (We'll see what happens in May...)

In the last few years we've had land problems and weather problems and membership problems. We're not sure what's happening with members, but Iowa's pheasant hunting is all but gone (due to the weather the last few years), so that may be a contributing factor.

I dropped out last year because of the resulting overload, but our last NAHRA test was a kind I really would have enjoyed had I only been a participant.
https://www.facebook.com/easterniow...4108310953185/473462689351079/?type=1&theater
About a dozen hunters who train their own dogs getting together on a September weekend before hunting seasons to test their summer preparations. We had beautiful weather, good judges, good grounds. Small events can be fine. So can big ones, but then you REALLY have to share the work.
 
#49 ·
MN and getting qualifications are the main factor to large/limited AKC tests but people switching to AKC from HRC is also a large factor. In the last 2 years I have seen a large number of previously HRC only pros at MN and the weekend tests.

In Texas I know of 3 HRC tests that were cancel this spring due to lack of participation and one that was held with a total of 22 dogs. Whatever the problems going on with HRC, whether political, lack of challenge, titles, clubs not able to make money because of HRC charges, Grand judging or whatever, I hope they fix their issues. Everyone going to one venue is hurting all 3.
 
#51 ·
Ken, I agree with what you are saying. Out here we don't have to worry about land and have the same AKC judge problems you do, but those are not that hard to deal with, we have been paying attention to what judges are current if we don't know we can use entry express and the AKC website to get pretty much all the judge info we need. A quick phone call can is required sometimes.
Probably the biggest hassle now is HRC trying to get judges approved takes an act of congress. I asked for a copy of a policy from HRC and out rep 3 months before the hunt as it affected our judging pool. Finally got it 3 days after the hunt after threatening a class action lawsuit just to get the info from them. When we first started HRC 3 years ago they were very helpful and they had a secretary we could call and was very helpful and would call back and help you or just check up on you. Well they got rid of her and now it is a fight ever single test and getting to the point that I think just holding AKC tests is really the way to go. If HRC doesn't get their act together this next hunt will be my last one, which is too bad because I really like the hunts and my dog really really likes them.
 
#53 ·
More difficult to get there and an AKC title
 
#55 ·
badbullgator Yes more non hunters play AKC than the others two venues, but many more of us are bird hunters. NONE of the venues come close to putting on a real days hunt, nor is anyone better for hunters than the other.[/QUOTE]

Been affiliated with both NAHRA and AKC for a few years and still judge both.

NAHRA has used of 300 decoys in a spread, used electronic calls, used multiple boats for both stations and handlers-yes even moved the boat from starting point to the point of origin. Used an upland hunt in a brace and wildly flushed pheasants,quail, or other species listed in the premium. NAHRA has also used live birds released that ( wait)...... the dog had to trail! A walkup, honor, triple land,triple water, quarter with steady to flush, remote, water and a land blind one incorporated with marks, trail, and other things a judge may want to see.

Now in the AKC events we stand upright next to our doggy (drop our hand-optional, never have figured this out for a hunting dog) release fido to pick up the triples. We do (AKC) however have that infamous land/water combo ;) I have run out of a boat 2x by the same judge a few years apart, but the boat was on the land, dog didn't have to even reenter after its return. Upland- I been told go ahead-it will be your last time judging akc... (Guess they dont upland hunt?) Trail???

Now I'll give AKC that you do have to pick up more marks, and run at least 1 more blind to qualify. But at this whole time you are teaching control and the dog is by your side. PERIOD! The most freedom the dog gets is the walkup!

Now try running an upland into a triple land series, or a trail into your marks.


Yes you can do these things in NAHRA with the smaller # of entrants, but dont say they are not close to days hunt.

I guess you can argue the point that in NAHRA the handler can talk quietly to your dog, ; ) I guess I do that from time to time while hunting--regards. looking forward to running HRC this summer!
 
#56 ·
I started with NAHRA back in the mid 90s. I certainly think both do have an opportunity. NAHRA, in particular, though has some bad history behind it that probably still touches nerves of some clubs--it got ugly.
 
#61 ·
During my tenure in Iowa and EIHRA I worked all 3 types of HT and ran all 3 (NAHRA most, HRC 2nd, very minimal AKC). As a midwest upland/waterfowl hunter it is my preference to run NAHRA if you take politics, registry,etc aside. Troy T.'s description of a really good NAHRA test is spot on and was able to run several exciting scenarios such as that, maybe sometimes a little too creative on the judge's part :) Purely as training my dog to hunt and would run NAHRA, unfortunately since moving to the West Coast there aren't as many close venues for me to do that easily.

My experience with HRC was mostly positive, I liked shooting from the line but I think it is way overdone (me shooting at a mark 100 yards out seems ridiculous to me, I don't take those shots in the field). The Upland tests that HRC run seem a bit contrived and un-realistic compared to what NAHRA does. Why I stopped running HRC, it seemed too focused on judging handlers and their gun safety than the dog work. 6 years in the Marine Corps and 20+ years hunting I wasn't there for that, wanted more attention paid to the dog work.

AKC - I like the technicality and difficulty of the marks. I think it is the least "social" of the venues but obviously has the biggest upside as far as national recognition and backing with a registry.

Really though its nice to have choices and they all bring a little different flavor to their test. Try them all and see which one suits your taste the best. Running at the highest level of any of the 3 probably means you have a dog that is excellent in the field.
 
#62 ·
I have no clue what all the NAHRA history stuff is and don't care to know. I'd really like to do all that other stuff though, with all my free time. :) Flushing sounds great and after working the dogs on quail and pheasant and other birds the last couple of years for training, I'd love to see what they can do. Watching them figure out that birds run was great! And dinner was even better afterwards!

Sue
 
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