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Thread: Keystone Pipe

  1. #21
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    Marvin,

    Look like the taxpayer gets left holding the bag again at your Asarco superfund site. The company made hay and profits only to leave a mess. It happens all the time and the Market never does anything to stop it from happening. In fact, some people say that the market promotes such behavior.

    From the EPA Superfund FAQ on Asarco…
    Who is responsible for the environmental cleanup at the former Asarco Tacoma Smelter?
    Asarco and Point Ruston have both signed onto a Consent Decree with the United States to perform cleanup work at the Asarco Smelter site. Asarco is currently in bankruptcy, and the United States has claims pending against Asarco in the bankruptcy.

    How much will the cleanup cost start to finish?
    The estimate for cleanup that Point Ruston is conducting is $28 million. EPA will receive up to $5 million over time from the sale of the site, which will be used for the parts of the cleanup that Point Ruston is not responsible for (cleanup of the yacht basin and Ruston/North Tacoma yards.) In addition, EPA is reimbursed for all of its project costs including salaries, contractor support, and other costs related to overseeing the cleanup work done by Point Ruston.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    One correction on a comment made that refineries are built on the coast in post #2. This is not accurate. The closest refinery to the gulf in Louisiana in 70 miles from the mouth of the Mississippi River. Most refineries are located north on New Orleans to Baton Rouge. Smaller tankers navigate the river to pump out their cargo. Super tankers unload a Port Fouchon. Also, there are 400 offshore rigs within a 50 mile radius of Fourchon and most of the producing rigs transfer the oil via pipelines to Fourchon.
    It's such a shame that in the USA, defending Liberty has become such a heroic deed.

  3. #23
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Sort of like Detroit?
    Hey, the American landscape is littered with dead and dying towns. Detroit is just one of them. Most have lost their reason for existance and their location offers no way out.

    I think it is a great plan to rip down the blight and turn the town back to farms and orchards. However, a truncated Detroit does have some opportunity that geography gives it. It won't completely vanish.
    Zeus

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  4. #24
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Did EPA start this during the Bush administration?

    Maybe, just maybe, all those old plants that were grandfathered in after the 1963 Clean Air act have reached the end of their lifespan and power companies have done the math (aka ASSESSED THE MARKET) and figured out the natural gas is a better alternative.[/QUOTE]

    Henry...as always your data does not support your hypothesis....actually confirms my post....the passage of the CAA in 1963 was only the 'tip of the iceberg' on government intervention forcing conversions to natural gas by public utilities. Additionally, the stopped approving new power stations that were not planned to run natural gas.....

    Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say. ~William W. Watt

    Last edited by swampcollielover; 03-10-2014 at 09:36 AM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    I don't know what you're taking about. They are going to pipe crude right past here to the gulf coast. What the hell is wrong with refining it here and piping it to market?
    So rather than expand Keystone to transport crude to the refineries, your solution is to build a refinery AND expand pipeline systems to transport the refined products? And that would make sense to whom?
    Matt McKenzie

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  6. #26
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeus3925 View Post
    Hey, the American landscape is littered with dead and dying towns. Detroit is just one of them. Most have lost their reason for existance and their location offers no way out.

    I think it is a great plan to rip down the blight and turn the town back to farms and orchards. However, a truncated Detroit does have some opportunity that geography gives it. It won't completely vanish.
    This really was the best idea I'd heard for Detroit, turning the worst distressed areas back to natural uses. Why doesn't it please the conservationists to do that? Trees and forests are great for CO2 reduction.

    Detroit has a harsh climate, so I'm not sure what crops might do best there. Maybe some windfarms?

    I read a commentary a while back that Obama thinks we should concentrate more people in our cities. It would save fossil fuels to have people living in cities v. suburbs. NYC has begun planning an apartment building that, to offset high rental costs in NYC, will be only about 400 SF.

    People are easier to control when they are concentrated in cities. They don't have much opportunity for self-sufficiency for much of anything when they are crammed into limited living quarters and surrounded by concrete. Easier to make such people "dependent".

    If you look at the electoral map the blue states have more population density than red states; while the red states have more geographical space. We know that cities' votes in PA play a large role in the blueness of PA. Even smaller cities, like Allentown, have red suburbs, but the city vote can change the "color" or county elections. Due to our area's location suburbs are growing. The "immigrants" to those newer, and quite expensive suburbs are often from NY and NJ, (lured here due to the high housing costs in NJ and NY) bringing along a "blueness" with them. When you get into more rural areas, you begin to see a "color change" to red. It makes a lot of sense for Ds to favor cities v. lower-population-density living choices. When you have a large yard to grow food and freeze & can it, and places to hunt or raise livestock, you become more independent.

    The Fed govt keeps claiming more land for govt control. This can serve two purposes: ostensibly conservation, but also concentrating population into smaller areas.

    No, I'm not a "survivalist", but I can see how some economic independence in matters such as food can be conducive to more political indepence as well.

    Since this form of economic independence can also be heavily dependent on fossil fuel for transportation, high cost of gasoline is more important for those suburban/rural areas. You can "force" people back to the cities by increasing the costs of energy for the middle class. The elites can afford the prices of the energy, but the lower income person cannot.

    When city dwellers seek relaxation they often return to open spaces and green grass (golf courses?), beaches, hiking in forests or low-population density areas. Even suburban dwellers often choose the same types of environment for relaxation purposes. Some people do seek city activities for certain amusements.

    I lived in NYC as a kid. When my family moved, I was devastated. That didn't last long. I also have a friend who moved here to the Lehigh Valley after growing up in row home in Philadelphia all her life. She was adamant about not wanting to leave Philadelphia, her familiar surroundings. It didn't take long before she knew she never wanted to go back to Philly. A lot of our city dwellers simply do not know of any other way of life. Maybe farms or orchards around Detroit could be a very good thing for those who have never known anything but city life.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampcollielover View Post
    ...
    Henry...as always your data does not support your hypothesis....actually confirms my post....the passage of the CAA in 1963 was only the 'tip of the iceberg' on government intervention forcing conversions to natural gas by public utilities. Additionally, the stopped approving new power stations that were not planned to run natural gas.....
    Thanks Swamp. I needed a good laugh. The depth of your delusion is impressive.

    It is a free country. You are welcomed to advocate for a higher priced higher polluting source of power for parts this nation. Maybe you should move to China, they really like coal, for now, and have far fewer regulations and no clean air act.
    Last edited by Henry V; 03-10-2014 at 10:49 AM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry V View Post
    Thanks Swamp. I needed a good laugh. The depth of your delusion is impressive.

    It is a free country. You are welcomed to advocate for a higher priced higher polluting source of power for parts this nation. Maybe you should move to China, they really like coal, for now, and have far fewer regulations and no clean air act.
    So as to not be considered a fanatic, I will go elsewhere and change the subject...as Churchill once said

    "A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject."

  9. #29
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    This really was the best idea I'd heard for Detroit, turning the worst distressed areas back to natural uses. Why doesn't it please the conservationists to do that? Trees and forests are great for CO2 reduction.

    Detroit has a harsh climate, so I'm not sure what crops might do best there. Maybe some windfarms?
    I don't think the conservationists are at all opposed to the plan. There is a master plan that would turn Detroit's dessicated landscape into a verdant post industrial city. I am not sure it can be carried out, but the bankruptcy was a wake up call to civic leaders. There is a new determination among the elite and powerful in the area --namely the auto folks--to bring the city back.

    The Detroit area grows corn, wheat, and soybeans just fine. My relatives have large vegetable farms just south of Detroit. Michigan has fruit orchards and grape vineyards. Just south of Detroit there are massive greenhouses raising everything from winter vegetables to flowers for Walmart and Target. A high school classmate's family has 40 acres under glass. He told me he does $2.5 million a year business with Target alone.

    Your conclusion of government crowding people into cities for greater control may be a misinterpretation of the geographic forces at work. Commute times as well as the agglomeration of goods and services in a central location have a tendency to pull in populations. Travel time and transportation costs are the main factors seen by some geographers as possibly hindering suburban growth into the future. The cost of maintaining and owning an automobile are also causing young people and some companies looking at central cities as a place to establish themselves. I think it is a bit early to consider it a trend or not. However, in this case, natural forces are likely to be at work and probably independent of government action.

    Have a fine one!
    Last edited by zeus3925; 03-10-2014 at 04:17 PM.
    Zeus

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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry V View Post
    Marvin,

    Look like the taxpayer gets left holding the bag again at your Asarco superfund site. The company made hay and profits only to leave a mess. It happens all the time and the Market never does anything to stop it from happening. In fact, some people say that the market promotes such behavior.

    From the EPA Superfund FAQ on Asarco…
    Any reference to ASARCO would be past tense - they were taken over in their entirety by Grupo ??????, a Mexican silver miner.

    The taxpayer is left holding the bag because the politico's, of both stripes, spent the money as fast as it came in -
    The Letterman thread is typical, the oil companies take the risk in it's entirety, the proceeds are taxed at a rate as
    high as the traffic will bear, the politico's demagogue the companies for obscene profits while taking a larger share
    with no risk than the company's make as a ROI.

    If you cannot reason that out then it is no surprise you believe as you do!!!!!
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