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Thread: Keystone Pipe

  1. #31
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    So rather than expand Keystone to transport crude to the refineries, your solution is to build a refinery AND expand pipeline systems to transport the refined products? And that would make sense to whom?
    I don't know, apparently to the company that intended to put the refinery here thought it was a good idea? You're asking me to defend their business plan? WTF? A lot of people here thought the jobs it would bring to the area would be great. A lot of others got the NIMBY Syndrome and battled the refinery tooth and nail. All I did was link to a couple of articles verifying that yes, some folks think putting refineries up in this part of the country is a good idea and for my trouble I get you trying to tell me I'm some kind of a dumb arse. Apparently it's asinine to place a refinery on the path between where the crude is located and the market where refined products will be sold...
    Last edited by Buzz; 03-10-2014 at 02:51 PM.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Buzz...your babbling again!

  3. #33
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    I don't know, apparently to the company that intended to put the refinery here thought it was a good idea? You're asking me to defend their business plan? WTF? A lot of people here thought the jobs it would bring to the area would be great. A lot of others got the NIMBY Syndrome and battled the refinery tooth and nail. All I did was link to a couple of articles verifying that yes, some folks think putting refineries up in this part of the country is a good idea and for my trouble I get you trying to tell me I'm some kind of a dumb arse. Apparently it's asinine to place a refinery on the path between where the crude is located and the market where refined products will be sold...
    Buzz,
    I apologize for my snarky comments. I fell into the trap of insulting rather than discussing. I have been attempting to change my approach to some of these divisive political discussions by trying to keep my conversations civil while explaining my position. Obviously in this case I fell short. I can improve nothing by insulting you and I certainly can't help you understand my position by making you feel that I'm calling you stupid. It is so easy to let emotions dictate our actions and the way we communicate with one another. The truth of the matter that is many of us (myself especially) discuss issues we know little about and get into arguments based on headlines and soundbites and slanted opinion pieces that we expose ourselves to. It's a shame, but we don't REALLY have the gumption to educate ourselves on the real facts and it is easy to just parrot what those on "our side" say about any given issue. And what's even more sad is that those of us who come to this forum are more politically aware than the majority of our peers. And probably more so than many of our elected officials. The long and short of it is I don't know much about the oil industry or Keystone XL other than what I learned while doing a research project a few years ago. Who am I to insult someone else's knowledge of the issue?
    I do get frustrated with some comments I read here that seem to indicate that many on "your side" don't seem to understand basic principals of business. I guess I let that frustration get the better of me and for that I am sorry. I love this country as I'm sure you do, but I'm afraid. I'm afraid that the foundation of this nation's success is being nibbled away, tiny bite by tiny bite. I'm afraid that our young people are falling into the same collectivist trap that seems to ensnare every nation sooner or later. Little by little, we exchange liberty for false security. Little by little, we give up our freedom and few of us seem to care. Many don't care because freedom is scary. The flip side of freedom to succeed is freedom to fail. We want that safety net. We want all the blessings and opportunities, but we want to be immune from discomfort, from failure, from insecurity. We want, we want, we want. We want the impossible, we have plenty of historic proof that it is impossible, we can even understand on a logical level that it is impossible, but it doesn't prevent humans from trying to get it over and over and over. Here's where I could list all the countries that reached the tragic ultimate expression of collectivism, but you don't need me to do that. You can list them yourself. I'm truly afraid that America is going to end up on that list. Probably not in our lifetime, but eventually. I have grandchildren now. What kind of country will their children live in? The thought scares me.
    Sorry for the long-winded, off-topic rant. I just wanted you to maybe understand where I'm coming from.
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry V View Post
    Do have one shred of evidence for this nonsense?

    The switch to NG is primarily from MARKET forces. Now you don't like what the market is doing so you blame the government. Priceless.
    A acquaintance here in Cincinnati supplies gas to 20-30k houses and a large fleet of vehicles. They were fought every step of the way by local, EPA and some state government. However he never put one rig up or applied one fracking permit.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Storts View Post
    A acquaintance here in Cincinnati supplies gas to 20-30k houses and a large fleet of vehicles. They were fought every step of the way by local, EPA and some state government. However he never put one rig up or applied one fracking permit.
    Dan, the point being discussed was for power plants conversion from coal to gas and was not related to vehicles.

    Post some particulars about who was fighting the conversion of automobiles and why and the topic could be discussed.

    I did a search of "ohio compressed natural gas" and found a lot of projects moving forward.
    epa information on moving vehicle to alternative fuels are available at http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fue...s/altfuels.htm
    here is an article on how epa amended its rules to make it easier to convert to cng. http://www.ngvglobal.com/us-epa-amen...nversions-0401

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Any reference to ASARCO would be past tense - they were taken over in their entirety by Grupo ??????, a Mexican silver miner.

    The taxpayer is left holding the bag because the politico's, of both stripes, spent the money as fast as it came in -
    The Letterman thread is typical, the oil companies take the risk in it's entirety, the proceeds are taxed at a rate as
    high as the traffic will bear, the politico's demagogue the companies for obscene profits while taking a larger share
    with no risk than the company's make as a ROI.

    If you cannot reason that out then it is no surprise you believe as you do!!!!!
    Marvin. Based on your post, your reasoning seems to be that it is the politicians fault and that they should have reserved some of the taxes collected over the years to pay to clean up the mess left by a private company. If, as in mining situations, additional fees had been collected during operations to establish a financial assurance fund to clean-up a site post production, I would agree. In this case, the company pulled up stakes and left the bankrupt receiving company holding the bag. Time and time again this has left the taxpayers holding the bag , just as the case is here. We should not privatize the profits and socialize the costs.
    Last edited by Henry V; 03-10-2014 at 11:45 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry V View Post
    Marvin. Based on your post, your reasoning seems to be that it is the politicians fault and that they should have reserved some of the taxes collected over the years to pay to clean up the mess left by a private company. If, as in mining situations, additional fees had been collected during operations to establish a financial assurance fund to clean-up a site post production, I would agree. In this case, the company pulled up stakes and left the bankrupt receiving company holding the bag. Time and time again this has left the taxpayers holding the bag , just as the case is here.
    Henry - I assume you are still a somewhat young guy, at least relative to my years on earth. I also believe you somewhat naive!
    Just how long do you think that fund would last & who would ensure that it was available when needed? You'll find out when you
    get ready to collect your SS.

    You will never hear me defend these companies, but you have to realize, "It's ore - Only if it can be mined at a profit",
    & that's what the mining companies will do
    to maximize profits . Look at the attempt to get into Bristol Bay! I can remember making
    the statement that I thought it criminal that the company's tailings was leaching into the little creek going from Climax to Dillon CO in
    front of an executive for the company I worked for in CO. Hence no fish, though a beautiful little stream. On the other side of the CD
    the headwaters of the Arkansas river system began. The executive informed me that he had better never hear that statement again!
    I realized I was working for the wrong company & moved shortly there after. Because the company had a monopoly on the Molybdenum
    market the gross profit was 90% of the selling price of MO as it left by barrel from the mill.

    I believe there is a balance that can be met, but the pendulum seems to swing to far beyond the
    center. How would it make you feel if you were, & you now are, aware that the Gore family owns
    a zinc deposit that is one of the major polluters of a river near his home? So sometimes the
    political leanings of the polluter contribute to the publication of the truth.
    __________________________

    Marvin S

    Everyone's friend is No One's friend

    Someday your life will flash before your eyes. It's your responsibility to make sure it's worth watching!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    Buzz,
    I apologize for my snarky comments. I fell into the trap of insulting rather than discussing. I have been attempting to change my approach to some of these divisive political discussions by trying to keep my conversations civil while explaining my position. Obviously in this case I fell short. I can improve nothing by insulting you and I certainly can't help you understand my position by making you feel that I'm calling you stupid. It is so easy to let emotions dictate our actions and the way we communicate with one another. The truth of the matter that is many of us (myself especially) discuss issues we know little about and get into arguments based on headlines and soundbites and slanted opinion pieces that we expose ourselves to. It's a shame, but we don't REALLY have the gumption to educate ourselves on the real facts and it is easy to just parrot what those on "our side" say about any given issue. And what's even more sad is that those of us who come to this forum are more politically aware than the majority of our peers. And probably more so than many of our elected officials. The long and short of it is I don't know much about the oil industry or Keystone XL other than what I learned while doing a research project a few years ago. Who am I to insult someone else's knowledge of the issue?
    I do get frustrated with some comments I read here that seem to indicate that many on "your side" don't seem to understand basic principals of business. I guess I let that frustration get the better of me and for that I am sorry. I love this country as I'm sure you do, but I'm afraid. I'm afraid that the foundation of this nation's success is being nibbled away, tiny bite by tiny bite. I'm afraid that our young people are falling into the same collectivist trap that seems to ensnare every nation sooner or later. Little by little, we exchange liberty for false security. Little by little, we give up our freedom and few of us seem to care. Many don't care because freedom is scary. The flip side of freedom to succeed is freedom to fail. We want that safety net. We want all the blessings and opportunities, but we want to be immune from discomfort, from failure, from insecurity. We want, we want, we want. We want the impossible, we have plenty of historic proof that it is impossible, we can even understand on a logical level that it is impossible, but it doesn't prevent humans from trying to get it over and over and over. Here's where I could list all the countries that reached the tragic ultimate expression of collectivism, but you don't need me to do that. You can list them yourself. I'm truly afraid that America is going to end up on that list. Probably not in our lifetime, but eventually. I have grandchildren now. What kind of country will their children live in? The thought scares me.
    Sorry for the long-winded, off-topic rant. I just wanted you to maybe understand where I'm coming from.
    Nice post Matt

  9. #39
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    a 400,000 BPD refinery by Elk Point SD makes no sense but one by
    Elverson PA certainly would!!!.
    Marvin, funny you mention Oil and Elverson PA.
    5 miles away next to Elverson in Warwick is probably one of the best gentleman's estates in America where I'm lucky to be able to train. It's been in the Pew family for a long while (Sunoco)
    The old time robber barrons had no problem raping and polluting the rest of the country so they could live the high life in the east.
    "Darla" AFC Candlewoods Lil Smokin Tequila (2002-2013)(fondly remembered)
    "Smoke" Smokin Auggies Menace, QAA (2003- )(retired nut case, ask Rando)
    "Simba" Humewood Simba (1999-2014)(my 1st dog)

    .
    Per favore, non mi rompere i coglioni.
    Grazie




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