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Thread: A Good Debate Question #2

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Hawkes View Post
    You can NOT be serious!!!!

    As the scenario was presented- without anything else to go on but the story and my imagination (which always conjures a fun to run hard charger)... If I am going to take issue with anything at all- that's it. If he did see the bird- which is how the story was told- I see a training issue. Maybe the dog has had some tough lessons with poison birds and or switching- and now has a little reluctance to pick something up that isn't right where he marked the fall.

    Am I dinging the dog? No. The trainer? No. I'm tossing out something to consider in the spirit of debate. So in that light, please educate me, Jacob.
    Last edited by jhnnythndr; 03-10-2014 at 06:14 PM.

  2. #22
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    Breck nailed it earlier. The dog obviously marked the bird & went straight to where it landed. That sounds like an excellent mark to me. Should the dog be penalized because the flyer was crippled?? Certainly not. Straight to the fall = Excellent mark. Hunted in an educated manner & found the bird. That's an excellent mark & shouldn't be scored anything other than that IMO. I would score it the same as a dog that went straight to the mark & the flyer fell dead. Then again, I don't know anything.

  3. #23
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    Well, I think you and I would both say the same thing if we saw it go down in person. It's easy to go down the rabbit hole on a debate question, it was presented as though it had been an "issue" so I'm looking at it from the perspective of "what kind of issue"

    There you go- I answered "what kind of issue" not "is this an issue"

  4. #24
    Member TonyK's Avatar
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    Fire the gunners...

  5. #25
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    Ability to “mark’’ does not necessarily imply “pinpointing
    the fall.’’ A dog that misses the “fall’’ on the
    first cast, but recognizes the depth of the “area of the
    fall,’’ stays in it, then quickly and systematically “huntsit-out,’’ has done both a creditable and an intelligent job of marking. Such work should not be appreciably out-scored by the dog that “finds’’ or “pinpoints’’ on his
    first cast
    . However, a dog which consistently, i.e., during
    an entire stake, marks his birds in a closer area, hence,
    more accurately than another dog, should be judged
    accordingly. All things are relative, and, conceivably,
    such differences in markings alone might be sufficient to
    determine the final placings in a particular stake.

    When all else fails read the rule book....

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

  6. #26
    Senior Member stonybrook's Avatar
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    In an AKC HT where Perseverance and Trainability are given numerical scores, a dog that does a drive by (seeing the bird laying there and willfully avoiding it) or two past a bird laying out in the open would definitely receive a lower than average (i.e.. less than meeting expectation) score in my book. I would award this particular dog with a hypothetical 9 or 10 for marking and a hypothetical 4 or 5 for Perseverance. A lot would depend on how far the bird moved, if it was moving/flapping/etc and how sure I was that the dog actually saw the bird.

    Having judged with Dave and knowing that he is an outstanding dog man, I would like to hear his thoughts on what the root of his question was pertaining to. Since I have never judged a FT, I can't comment on how this would be addressed other than possibly drawing a note from the judges on their sheets. I would sure hope that potentially blinking a bird would somehow factor into the placements when the dust settled.
    "Speed of the captain, speed of the ship."

    Travis Lund
    Stony Brook Kennels
    www.stonybrookkennels.net
    Foley, MN

  7. #27
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stonybrook View Post
    In an AKC HT where Perseverance and Trainability are given numerical scores, a dog that does a drive by (seeing the bird laying there and willfully avoiding it) or two past a bird laying out in the open would definitely receive a lower than average (i.e.. less than meeting expectation) score in my book. I would award this particular dog with a hypothetical 9 or 10 for marking and a hypothetical 4 or 5 for Perseverance. A lot would depend on how far the bird moved, if it was moving/flapping/etc and how sure I was that the dog actually saw the bird.

    Having judged with Dave and knowing that he is an outstanding dog man, I would like to hear his thoughts on what the root of his question was pertaining to. Since I have never judged a FT, I can't comment on how this would be addressed other than possibly drawing a note from the judges on their sheets. I would sure hope that potentially blinking a bird would somehow factor into the placements when the dust settled.
    It's a hypothetical we all read different things into it. If the bird moved far enough to appear unrelated to the fall I don't see how perseverance has anything to do with it. These dogs are trained from an early age to focus intently on the fall, hunt a very tight area (dirt clod drill), ignore nearby diversion birds and dig it out. If the bird only moved a short distance, I don't believe a dog wouldn't pick it up. To me the hypothetical seems unrealistic.

  8. #28
    Member TonyK's Avatar
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    Score to the AOF, Excellent mark in the original scenario.

    Taking debate a bit further what would you do, as a judge, if the dog pinpointed the spot where the bird fell, hunted the AOF then eventually came back to the handler without the bird and you, a judge, can clearly see the bird walking around? And would it differ to you if the bird was still in AOF or had by that time reached an area that you consider outside AOF?

  9. #29
    Member Troy Tilleraas's Avatar
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    What venue? What stake?

    Marks irregardless of venue 9

    Perserverance 5 AKC hunt test MASTER

    "the bird has moved out in the open and he sees it but makes several passes before he picks the game up and returns. " an average dog at this time in his/her training...needs more cripples!

  10. #30
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    The above actually happened at a Ft recently.
    The bird fell in the open and walked away but stll in the open.
    The dog ran to the exact spot an excellant mark. It seemed surprised when the bird was not where he marked it. The dog immediately saw the bird but then spent the next several minutes circling the bird trying to deciede should he pick the bird up.

    My thoughts which prompted the debate question are:
    The flyer gunners should have shot again
    - we should all pratice picking up live birds
    - the mark was excellant but then the hunt and the decesion to finally return with the bird would cause me to consider this in placements and in a ht to score lower on preserversnce and training . Which poses another question how many score each bird as opposed to each series

    An above comment asks about returning without a bird: if your around long enough you will see this - judges ask the gunners to see if they can find the bird, if the guns do find the bird then they should motify the judges, not touch or disturb the bird- the judges should then walk out and inspect the bird. If the judges see nothing wrong then there is no choice but to drop the dog in either game. If there are circumstances then a judges decision is needed

    My humble opinion only
    Dk

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