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Thread: A Good Debate Question #2

  1. #31
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    Dave,
    Always respect your opinions. Such happened to me at a Q. Bird landed head up, walked around. Pup circled and sniffed the bird, then returned to the fall area and hunted aggressively. I suggested to the judges that the bird had not been hit and that pup was looking for a bird that was shot. They had the bird picked up, inspected it and found no evidence of it's being shot. Rerun.
    Backstory - I watched my old gal track a wounded hen through several groups of resident ducks, ignoring all them while tracking down the hen that was shot. That's what a good hunting dog should be able to do. And we train on water with 100's of resident wild birds. The landowner is adamant that we don't harm any of "her birds." Not unusual to run marks or blinds through flocks of resting birds. So in your scenario I'd be careful to not penalize a dog for ignoring a live unshot bird. But, especially in a HT, I'd expect a dog to be able to track down a cripple.
    Afterthought - Maybe I should go back to training on live shackled birds?

    Bob Swift

  2. #32
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    All good #31 - a suggestion we all need periodically is to use a flapper or unshot bird

    A portion of the debate: your judges gave you a reun that day - some others may not give a rerun
    Dk

  3. #33
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    I would agree w/Dave #30 and Bob/#31 w/ training on live birds -hooded, shackled both on land and water. Usually there are poor mechanics regarding live birds wounded or not , wandering off from the point of impact. Gunners should sluice the bird per previous instructions or judges order the sluicing PRIOR to releasing the dog. I even use clip wings or panty hosed birds capable of walking in heavy cover to teach my young dogs to track. Equally you have to be careful not to overdo this because some dogs might forget to mark and use their nose more and get in trouble.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Not exactly related to a hunt as described in the op but......
    This is one of the best videos I've found showing a dog put up seriously good hunt on runner. In our quest to be fair to all dogs at a trial a "no bird" for a runner is a given.
    Over in the UK no such thing.
    Very impressive hunt, worth everyones time to take a moment to watch..
    Field Champion running down a lively cock pheasant in crop.

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    To answer Dave's question, I score each bird. to debate the lowering of perseverance/trainability scores for a dog not picking up a cripple out of the AOF, do you lower the score for a dog not picking up a poison bird on a way to the blind? We teach these dogs to ignore their inherent behavior of picking up birds and your scenario matches very closely to poison bird training. Was the dog showing a lower level of training or higher one?

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  6. #36
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Dogs View Post
    Bird landed head up, walked around. Pup circled and sniffed the bird, then returned to the fall area and hunted aggressively. I suggested to the judges that the bird had not been hit and that pup was looking for a bird that was shot. They had the bird picked up, inspected it and found no evidence of it's being shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Good Dogs View Post
    Backstory - I watched my old gal track a wounded hen through several groups of resident ducks, ignoring all them while tracking down the hen that was shot. That's what a good hunting dog should be able to do. And we train on water with 100's of resident wild birds. The landowner is adamant that we don't harm any of "her birds." Not unusual to run marks or blinds through flocks of resting birds. So in your scenario I'd be careful to not penalize a dog for ignoring a live unshot bird. But, especially in a HT, I'd expect a dog to be able to track down a cripple.

    Do people view these as the same scenario?
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Junior Test No mark down, as long as the dog picked up the cripple and brought it back. Good perseverance score for a junior dog, who is not expected to have much hunting experience, but is still expected to able to handle a cripple.

    Senior test mark down of perseverance (A senior/ seasoned dog should not balk at a walking bird, and should not leave a cripple in favor of a dead one). Hunting wise a possible cripple would be picked up first, going for a dead bird over a cripple = bird lost and dog is not a good conservation tool. Now maybe the dog is running too fast didn't actually see the bird, but a senior level dog should have enough experience with wounded game that once they see a wounded bird go down they'll go in hard and not run circles around it giving it time to sneak off.

    A Master-Finished dog, handler should be hitting head against the side of the truck, a master hunting dog letting a cripple walk around to look for a dead bird (REALLY), = too much trick/poisoned bird etc. training. Even then I can't think of a dog that I hunt with who wouldn't take a very hard shock to pick up a walking bird over a dead one; Heck oftentimes they'll go out of their way to do that even with Loud whistles, electric collar and the handler screaming NO Judging wise very low perseverance, style score down; notes written on possible avoidance, will look for trend in a later series. Still one bird-one circumstance does not make or break a test, a pattern does.

    To Ted's Question; (on are the situations the same). No they aren't; however I'd expect the dog to pick-up the live unwounded bird and deliver it live unharmed = soft mouth. Bird is unharmed land owner has no issue, or club can reuse bird as a flyer . If the bird is dead, no gunshot/dog crushed/killed = hard mouth (very bad trait), owner pays the land owner for the bird, probably needs to find somewhere else to train, or teach dog to respect the birds it carries. Still a dog catching Wild Resident birds, with the price of Ammo these days ...That's a good dog .
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 03-11-2014 at 11:33 AM.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    There is a difference between a dog blinking a bird, and one that fails to recognize or "find" the bird.

    I would hate to guess how many thousands of birds I've been throwing or gunning at a flier station over the last 20+ years I've been doing this game. There are numerous times where we as gunners watch a dog go by a bird and wonder how that dog missed that bird. Sometimes they are in the open, sometimes they are even alive. Maybe the dog was exhaling when it should have been inhaling, maybe the bird was still when the dog looked and for what ever reason just didn't recognize it. We just don't know why. However, we do know that dog didn't find that bird.

    There are other times, where the dog clearly found the bird, saw that it was still alive and then left it. Clearly that dog blinked that bird.

    Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference even when viewing it from the flier station.

    When judging from the line it is even harder to tell the difference.

  9. #39
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    Doug Main - I agree w/your #38 here which is why judges must always be alert to bird placement and falls. I totally agree w/your #9 posting on judging a mark in the other thread based on your dog , trailing and picking up a live hen pheasant flyer. I have had that happen too many times w/the bird flapping the wings upon return. Hard on the heart/britches.

  10. #40
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Kress View Post
    The above actually happened at a Ft recently.
    The bird fell in the open and walked away but stll in the open.
    The dog ran to the exact spot an excellant mark. It seemed surprised when the bird was not where he marked it. The dog immediately saw the bird but then spent the next several minutes circling the bird trying to deciede should he pick the bird up. This very scenario happened to one of my dogs in a FT. He was dropped even though other marks were good and he did bring them all back. I should note that this same dog had flat out blinked a cripple once in a Junior HT. So we had been working on picking up runners. In the FT, it was like he was just trying to be sure this was the same bird he saw fall.

    My thoughts which prompted the debate question are:
    The flyer gunners should have shot again They better not if my dog is already running the mark!
    - we should all pratice picking up live birds Absolutely, and often!
    - the mark was excellant but then the hunt and the decesion to finally return with the bird would cause me to consider this in placements and in a ht to score lower on preserversnce and training . Which poses another question how many score each bird as opposed to each series I was not happy with him being dropped, as he sure looked good compared to a lot in the field that day. But as usual, lesson learned, and home to pick up lots of live birds!

    An above comment asks about returning without a bird: if your around long enough you will see this - judges ask the gunners to see if they can find the bird, if the guns do find the bird then they should motify the judges, not touch or disturb the bird- the judges should then walk out and inspect the bird. If the judges see nothing wrong then there is no choice but to drop the dog in either game. If there are circumstances then a judges decision is needed

    My humble opinion only
    Dk
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