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Thread: Anatomy of an Honor / And creeping in a Master

  1. #1
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Default Anatomy of an Honor / And creeping in a Master

    Senior or Master AKC HT:

    The Honor: Dog in sit position, Handler stands facing side of dog and stares like an eagle, neck bowed down at dog. Birds go off, dog creeps while sitting and eventually stands up while working dog takes off. At point when judge releases honor team, the dog is 3 feet in front of handler.

    In a Senior test: Is this a zero on the score card, grounds to disqualify, or just a pass in a pass/fail element of the test?

    What about a Master?

    How is creeping at the line (by working dog) viewed in a Master? Acceptable with points deducted. Depends on the creep?

    I do know that a controlled break is not allowed in Master.

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    Senior Member Kevinismybrother's Avatar
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    Given the scenario

    As a judge, I would not disqualify the dog/handler, but may ding them on trainability.

    as a handler, my little fella would get a lesson later that week on honoring.
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    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    The handler of the HONOR dog (HTs only) may speak quietly to the dog throughout the honor, in all stakes, I believe. (Check that out ... it's been a while)

    WORKING dog ... in master, creeping will probably cost you some trainability points and will factor into the overall score. May as well let him creep, as speaking will get you dropped. Judge may have you reheel before giving you a number if he is too far out. (my advice would be to reheel him, even if the judge doesn't require it.

    JS
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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    It depends is the only answer in both cases Jen.

    If the honoring dog crept 3 feet that may cost a couple of points but... if it's the second or third series and he's been doing it all day... missed a few whistles on his blinds or something... generally is showing a poor sit standard, that creep could push him into failville.

    Same with creeping at the line. Judges should try to reward a high powered dog IMHO but there is a point (subjective) where enough's enough and they have to fail the team.

    Just remember as a handler you can speak quietly on the honor but not at the running line.
    Darrin Greene

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    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Let's say dog is generally performing very well, but is a serial creeper throughout the test. Confession: my dog creeps occasionally in training while birds are going up. I remain silent and wait one or two seconds and she will re-heel herself, then I send her. She doesn't always creep, but sometimes.

    In training I cannot replicate the gun fire, especially that of the flyer station. Guns set off her excitement button. I think she may creep a bit at the test this weekend on both the line and the honor, but I feel confident she won't break or even creep very far. We have a Master test in 3 weeks and I'd like to know what Master judges think about creeping. Sounds like it may be acceptable if all else goes well?

    Thanks for your input!

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    Senior Member Splash_em's Avatar
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    A 3' creep from the working dog is, depending on the situation, better than the same creep from the honor dog.

    If the working dog is interfered with because of the creep or a plea to re-heel afterwards, we have something to talk about before callbacks.
    Richard Gravely

  7. #7
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    (8) The Judges shall agree in advance as to the extent
    of movement which shall be considered creeping, short
    of breaking,
    and whether working dogs that do “creep”
    should be brought to heel before being sent to retrieve.

    The Judges shall reach an agreement about the
    degree they will consider a controlled break and shall
    be in agreement on scoring a Junior and Senior dog’s
    Trainability for various degrees of controlled breaks.
    (Note: A “0” is required in Master.)
    A Guide
    PART V
    Guide for Dealing with
    Some Interpretational Issues
    Prior to a test, the Judges must agree on what constitutes
    creeping, controlled breaks, refusals, recasts
    and popping, and how these actions will be scored. In
    determining what constitutes these actions, Judges must remember that they are evaluating dogs for their
    suitability as hunting companions. While some of these
    traits or actions are serious and others are less so
    (although they become serious through repetition), it is important to retain the perspective of “suitability as
    a hunting companion.” A certain tolerance must be afforded
    to the dog that still proves effective and accomplishes its
    purpose in the field.
    In keeping with the objectives of the Regulations, some
    standardization is necessary to ensure a greater degree of
    consistency and uniformity in these areas. The following
    general definitions are intended to be helpful guidelines for
    Judges in making their determinations.
    1. Break. It is generally understood that a break
    occurs when a dog makes a movement, that, in the opinion
    of the Judges, indicates a deliberate intent to retrieve without
    having been ordered to do so, and cannot be brought under control by the handler.

    2. A controlled break is generally when a dog leaves to retrieve before being sent, but is quickly brought under
    control by verbal command or whistle and returns to the
    handler. A controlled break in Master calls for a “0” score
    (Ch. 5, Sec. 5 [6]).

    3. Creeping is generally considered as leaving the
    handler on a tentative yet excited basis, short of leaving
    completely to retrieve the bird, or waiting to be sent to retrieve. General unsteadiness, short of breaking.


    There is nothing that I read here that quantifies the penalty at that time. At that point in time the dog has either crept or it has broke .

    Short of -0-ing the dog out for an allowable infraction, over the course of the day the cumilative effect of the various incramental dings will show up in the average of the dogs score.
    Where at the end of the testing the dog must have an overall average of no less that( 7.00) for the entire test and a separate independent average of not less than (5.00) in each ability catagory related to Marking and a seperate one for Blinds
    Last edited by john fallon; 03-13-2014 at 01:44 PM.
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    Senior Member rboudet's Avatar
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    "my dog creeps occasionally in training while birds are going up. I remain silent and wait one or two seconds and she will re-heel herself, then I send her. She doesn't always creep, but sometimes."

    Why would you ever allow her to creep in training???

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    Member Troy Tilleraas's Avatar
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    3' is not far in my book for an honor... How far was your honor away from the working dog? Any extenuating circumstances? Last year in WI we had horse flies that were biting so bad my dog was actually snapping at them and jumped backward...

  10. #10
    Senior Member Julie R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rboudet View Post
    "my dog creeps occasionally in training while birds are going up. I remain silent and wait one or two seconds and she will re-heel herself, then I send her. She doesn't always creep, but sometimes."

    Why would you ever allow her to creep in training???
    I wouldn't run any of my dogs in anything if they crept in training. If you can't stop it in training you'll be in a world of trouble at a test.

    Julie R., Hope Springs Farm
    Chesapeake Bay Retrievers since 1981

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