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Thread: Anatomy of an Honor / And creeping in a Master

  1. #11
    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    As with all things, it depends on the judges. I would merely posit that if a judge says to you "Re-heel your dog" in multiple series, you probably have an "averaging" issue. Especially if they say it to you in all 3 series.
    Last edited by GulfCoast; 03-13-2014 at 04:50 PM.
    Wm. Mark Edwards
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  2. #12
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    III. Minor Dog Faults. Either severe or repeated or
    combinations of these “minor” infractions may summate into
    a “moderate” or even a “serious” fault. Also, they may be so
    slight as not to warrant any penalty at all.
    1. Excessive cheating on return – going out of the way by
    land from a “fall” to an excessive degree to avoid going into the
    water on the return from a water retrieve.
    2. Lack of attention.
    3. Poor line-manners – heeling poorly; not immediately
    taking and staying in the position designated; dropping a bird
    at delivery; jumping after a bird; not remaining quietly on line
    after delivery.
    4. Slow pick-up of a dead bird – (except when fluttering
    or badly shot-up); dropping bird; handling game in a sloppy
    manner.
    5. Unsteadiness on-line, including creeping.
    6. Whistle refusal – not stopping at the first whistle that
    should have been heard, but stopping at the second or third.
    7. Cast Refusal – Occasional failure to hold the line or to
    take the handler’s directions for more than a few yards.
    8. Popping on a blind retrieve – where there are no
    extenuating circumstances such as distance, wind, shallow
    (running) water or other conditions which make it difficult to
    hear the handler’s whistle.
    9. Slight freezing – reluctance to give up a bird.
    10. Slight short whining or one bark – while on the line or
    on being sent to retrieve.
    11. Roughness with game.

    This is straight from the book. As you can see, creeping is a MINOR FAULT (caps for emphasis only).

    However, if one is a student as to what goes on within this forum, you know that the rules are seldom factored into these discussions.

    OP cited a 3' creep. In my book, 1st occurrence= a notation. 2nd occurrence, 1 point deduction from trainability score. 3rd occurrence 2 point deduction from trainability score ON THAT SERIES AND IF THE TRAINABILITY SCORE COMES DOWN TO BARELY PASSING (5.0) THE DOG FAILS. This is due to the regs where they state that multiple minor faults of the same type can escalate to moderate or even serious faults. 3 three foot creeps is, in my mind, gross unsteadiness. Couple that with borderline trainability scores resulting from other issues and you're toast.-Paul
    Last edited by paul young; 03-13-2014 at 04:06 PM.
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Lonnie Spann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Senior or Master AKC HT:

    The Honor: Dog in sit position, Handler stands facing side of dog and stares like an eagle, neck bowed down at dog. Birds go off, dog creeps while sitting and eventually stands up while working dog takes off. At point when judge releases honor team, the dog is 3 feet in front of handler.

    In a Senior test: Is this a zero on the score card, grounds to disqualify, or just a pass in a pass/fail element of the test?

    What about a Master?

    How is creeping at the line (by working dog) viewed in a Master? Acceptable with points deducted. Depends on the creep?

    I do know that a controlled break is not allowed in Master.
    Here's the simple fix for this scenario:

    As the honor dog moves forward, the handler eases forward with said dog. Thus when the working dog is released the honor dog is right beside his/her handler, right where they should be! Next question.

    Lonnie Spann
    DISCLAIMER: The above post is the opinionated and biased view of your's truly, Lonnie Spann, and is in no way intended to reflect the opinions or views of the unfortunate individuals named below who just happen to be doomed with guilt by association.

    Member of CAHRC and North AL HRC. I train with AND AM FRIENDS WITH: Fishduck, Laidback, Splash_Em, RF2, Drake2014, Claimsadj, Hooked on Quackers, RookieTrainer and Roseberry.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Spann View Post
    Here's the simple fix for this scenario:

    As the honor dog moves forward, the handler eases forward with said dog. Thus when the working dog is released the honor dog is right beside his/her handler, right where they should be! Next question.

    Lonnie Spann
    LOL! I actually thought of that already...

  5. #15
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer Henion View Post
    Let's say dog is generally performing very well, but is a serial creeper throughout the test. Confession: my dog creeps occasionally in training while birds are going up. I remain silent and wait one or two seconds and she will re-heel herself, then I send her. She doesn't always creep, but sometimes.

    In training I cannot replicate the gun fire, especially that of the flyer station. Guns set off her excitement button. I think she may creep a bit at the test this weekend on both the line and the honor, but I feel confident she won't break or even creep very far. We have a Master test in 3 weeks and I'd like to know what Master judges think about creeping. Sounds like it may be acceptable if all else goes well?

    Thanks for your input!
    It will vary from judge to judge and always be a potential problem if you don't address it in training.

    You might want to try back-chaining some of the sounds and sights of the test to mean sit...

    You'll see here Hope is having a small problem differentiating sit from down right now, which is due to me being sloppy in obedience demos. That will get cleaned up as we go along toward field training this spring.

    Watch how she sits from a stand when I throw the dummy. No command, no body language. The throw is the signal.

    That's the basis for making duck calls, gun shots and birds being thrown all into cues for SIT.

    I don't know exactly how effective it's going to me. She's a really high energy dog, but it demonstrates to me that she knows exactly what she's supposed to do before retrieving so... corrections (I know you don't use any) are very fair.

    Darrin Greene

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jennifer Henion's Avatar
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    Darrin, I really love that idea! Can you outline it for me?

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    It will vary from judge to judge and always be a potential problem if you don't address it in training.

    You might want to try back-chaining some of the sounds and sights of the test to mean sit...

    You'll see here Hope is having a small problem differentiating sit from down right now, which is due to me being sloppy in obedience demos. That will get cleaned up as we go along toward field training this spring.

    Watch how she sits from a stand when I throw the dummy. No command, no body language. The throw is the signal.

    That's the basis for making duck calls, gun shots and birds being thrown all into cues for SIT.

    I don't know exactly how effective it's going to me. She's a really high energy dog, but it demonstrates to me that she knows exactly what she's supposed to do before retrieving so... corrections (I know you don't use any) are very fair.

    Nice Darrin. Thx
    HRCH Scaupgetters Tarnation QAA

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  8. #18
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    A hearty second on what Julie R said! A few statements from the past that seem to fit here, "Creeping is the first step to breaking" and "you own what you condone".

  9. #19
    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    I cant say anything thats not already been said already. Other than,maybe once your dog runs a test,and gets away with creeping,or breaking- it is very hard to eliminate that behavior!!!! I know this one- trust me.........
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  10. #20
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    I had one that would not creep at home only at a test. Last pass for her MH title she was about 10 ft in front when the 3rd bird went down. I knew we were done and the judge said reheel. I did and she smacked the triple and we passed. The next weekend I saw someone run a dog that creeped about 7 or 8 ft in the 1st series and was dropped. Like someone else said depends on the judges that day.

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