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Is EE fair to handlers?

8K views 34 replies 21 participants last post by  Sharon van der Lee 
#1 ·
I have noticed in recent trials contestants getting the same numbers (or close to the same) in both AA stakes. In this weekends Rockwall Trial, Lauren Hays is going to be third in the Open with dog number 21 and second in the Amateur with dog number 20, The Dow number is 19, I know because I follow her in the Am on Saturday.

There used to be a feature where the Club Secretary could redo the draw to keep this stuff from happening. Is this still the case? If not, there's a serious flaw in the system and it seems to me the program could be re written to keep this from happening. I can see where a handler that has multiple dogs might get first or second with his dogs in both stakes, but Lauren only has Slider. If there is a dog that might overcome this, it certainly is Slider but when pheasants are thrown in tests, being in the first five dogs is a very difficult task to overcome.
 
#3 · (Edited)
If you could get EE to give you the draw to follow her all week end I would say you're damn lucky...:cool:

On a serious note, by the 3rd/4th series does it really matter:p
 
#4 ·
I don't know about any flaw in the system. It is supposed to be random.
Yes. As Sec, I can tweak the draw. Or, redo it.

But, sometimes there is a subtraction. Starting number for open/am, could be very different. So, changing a number, might make it worse. Not better.

No one knows what the dow will be,, when the draw is finalized. Just as easily could have been late in the running order, not early.
 
#5 ·
Open and Am start on different days so doesn't matter, luck of the draw.
Where it gets hard on the double staked dog is if they don't run Open 1st series till Saturday morning then by the time Saturday is over they've run 6 series if both water blinds get done.
 
#6 ·
Well if EE is a random draw then what are the odds in an amat that 4 Chessies are entered and they come up 34,35, 36, 37 in the draw? Oh yeah only four entered?
 
#7 ·
Well if EE is a random draw then what are the odds in an amat that 4 Chessies are entered and they come up 34,35, 36, 37 in the draw? Oh yeah only four entered?
If they are using a GOOD randomizer to generate the list the odds are slim to none,

john
 
#8 ·
This has happened to me on more than once. Almost same number with same dog in both AA stakes. Yes I think EE's random number generator is not the best. It happens a surprising number of times when the dow is a low number and there is no subtraction.
 
#11 ·
In absence of the operative word "good", enter dog in 1 stake with a slightly different handler name than stake 2. Takes a bit more time but if its an issue the randomizer can be manipulated.
 
#12 ·
Well Tim, if you check Slider's record I don't think Lauren needs your help. Are you equally concerned about my #2 dog Tubby who has had the same issue on several occasions. We should all be thankful for a random draw and a random starting number, you are too field trial young to remember when things were different. The draw has a way of equalizing itself over the career of a dog, if I were Lauren I would like my chances under the current system much better than those of Judy and NAFC Cody under the old system.
 
#13 ·
Many of us out west have noticed the same thing. Plus, if you start paying close attention, you will probably notice that the same people run in the order near you. It's also interesting to note how often, if you run more than one dog in the AA, entered in both stakes, that the same dog runs first.
I was told by someone with a background in mathematics, that when a program is written for this kind of thing, it is never really random and that there are groupings within the program. I'm sure it's an old program and that, nowadays, is probably considered archaic.
 
#14 ·
I think unfair might be to strong, unlucky some weekend yes. Last trial i ran Chili was last in each stake, thank goodness for that last tick of the dow.
 
#15 ·
Ed, it's not about whether I think Lauren needs the help or if I fear her more than Tubby. Slider, Tubby and who ever else had the same numbers in both stakes will get a less than even chance to do well in one of those stakes. The fact that pheasants will be used in the first series of these stakes makes it even more so. I guess next time I enter I will be Jere (my real first name) in the Open and Tim in the Am. It's a flawed system that needs to be fixed, especially since it's the ONLY system available and we pay a very good amount of money to use it.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Would some one explain the process to me. Thanks in advance.
In hrc and akc ht order doesn't seem to be so important.
 
#17 ·
First ten dogs are usually a sacrifice
 
#20 ·
I think that is a bit overstated, the disadvantage of running early on land marks usually is a result of less than optimum scenting, light conditions, and relative lack of wind but it is not always a disadvantage. I would prefer to not run in the first 10 but have had my share of success doing so.
 
#18 ·
Not necessarily Mike, sometimes its an advantage, lighting, wind, rain conditions can be more advantageous to the early dogs. The main disadvantage is you have to get up really early. LOL
 
#19 ·
The running order should not be announced until the start time so all the sandbaggers have no where else to be and the field trial committee would have a captive audience to assign jobs from.
 
#31 ·
After EE has done its random draw, the F.T. Secretary has an opportunity to tweak it. The F.T. Committee is not involved with tweaking the draw as they do not have access to do so. I would imagine that there are F.T. Secretaries out there who do not bother to tweak the draw. I do. I tweak the Open because of dogs handled by pros. I try to space at least 2 dogs in between so there is no hold-up and all the blinds are full. It's a time management issue that can be solved by spacing the dogs handled by pros.

The DOW at close of the stock market on Tuesday determines the starting number for the all age stakes. If your dog is in the first 10, you can blame the DOW. Minor stakes are not determined by the DOW.

Helen
 
#23 ·
If EE randomly put me at dog #1 in every AA stake I entered it would not even phase me. Its not about the EE draw in AA stakes, its all about the Dow. So you should do your complaining to them if you run to close to first every week. I think the dow is some what random. Regards.
 
#24 ·
FT committees definitely do have the final say, I would agree. I have to think back to years ago when we lived in CA and use to run a field trial twice a year in southeastern Oregon. The field trial club was basically composed of a father, mother and son. We often would get the same number in the Q spring and fall! Once you got a number, it kind of stuck with you!
 
#25 ·
I've noticed EE isn't "real random." If EE gives you a low number and the Dow is low for several trials in a row, it's tough.
I've gotten close numbers in the Open and the Am when both stakes started on Friday.
So far this year my numbers were 1,24,33,39,29. From small trials to big.
 
#26 ·
Running early is much more magnified when hen pheasants are used. Ducks are much easier on earlier dogs. Yes, running early can even be an advantage with ducks, especially if it's a test where flier feathers will end up wafting over the path to key long birds, dragback will be a problem, wind picks up later in the day, etc.

I don't remember too many trials where running early with pheasants is anything but a disadvantage.
 
#28 ·
Running early is much more magnified when hen pheasants are used.
I don't remember too many trials where running early with pheasants is anything but a disadvantage.
Quit worrying about hen pheasants and train on 'em. And don't forget some dog's noses are just superior to others. Hen pheasants have a way of helping judges more clearly see that natural ability in dogs so blessed demonstrated.
 
#30 ·
Dow? Please
From EE website:


The order of running in any one or more stakes at a trial shall be in the order of the draw beginning with the dog with the number given at the draw which corresponds with the last two digits (including digits, if any, to the right of the decimal point) of the closing Dow Jones Industrial Average (the "DJIA Number") on the Tuesday immediately preceding the trial or, if the New York Stock Exchange is not open for business on such Tuesday, then on the most recent day prior to such Tuesday when the New York Stock Exchange is open for business, and continuing thereafter in numerical sequence. If the DJIA Number is 00, the dog given number one at the draw shall be the first running dog. If the DJIA Number is greater than the number of dogs entered in a stake, the number equal to the number of dogs entered in such stake shall be subtracted from the DJIA Number and such stake shall begin with the dog with the number given at the draw which corresponds with the number resulting from such subtraction (the "Second DJIA Number") and continue thereafter in numerical sequence. If the Second DJIA Number is greater than the number of dogs entered in such stake, such subtraction process shall be repeated as many times as necessary (subtracting from the Second DJIA Number and each subsequent resulting number, if any, the number of dogs entered in such stake) until the number resulting from such subtraction corresponds with a number given at the draw to a dog entered in such stake and such shall begin with such dog and continue thereafter in numerical sequence. Notice of such election shall be included in the premium list sent to prospective contestants by the club.
 
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