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Thread: Why do you want Health Care to be about Profit ?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    Possibly you're the only one who didn't realize that my comment was tongue-in-cheek sarcasm. I'll keep that in mind for future posts.



    As for this quote, it's quite valuable ... it's on my wall, in fact. Ponder it for a while and you may come to realize what it really means. It's all about self-interest​ and applies to many, many things. Often used out of context to support whatever position one proposes.

    JS
    Can someone please sneak into the "Swamp" and steal Swampys book of quotations and replace it with a dictionary {for starters}

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjh345 View Post
    Can someone please sneak into the "Swamp" and steal Swampys book of quotations and replace it with a dictionary {for starters}
    Maybe he won't notice and accidentally post that definition you were looking for.
    Dont wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve. Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by .44 magnum View Post
    I am old enough to remember the first family Doctor we had made house calls. Doctors in our town were valued members of the community who billed privately and even excepted home cooked meals or deserts from families who were not doing well financially. The Doctors lived in great big houses and for the most part were able to live rewarding lives and be leaders in the community.

    Local hospitals were non- profit. Every person was admitted not by any insurance program, but because they were in medical need. Billing was worried about later. Families never lost their homes not being able to pay their hospital bills and payment schedules were made in a way that reflected a families income.

    If you worked for a major corporation your health benefit was a perk that attracted you to work for a company. Not today. No pensions, poor health care benefits, and working conditions that only immigrants wanting a better life want to do to provide for their families.

    Then it all went wrong. Some capitalist decided I'll make Health Care all about profit. No more Non-profit hospitals, but owned by big business. Then pharmaceuticals started inventing new medicines that were priced so high it started to drag the insurance companies profit down. Hospitals billed $10.00 for a BandAide if you had insurance.

    I've got one solution for Health Care Reform. Make it all non-profit if it is going to be a National Program. Yes people working in the field of Health Care in the front line should be well paid. It is just so wrong that CEO's of big Hospital Groups make millions, that Pharmaceuticals rape the public and try to put profit above caring.

    Yes I want everyone to have Health Care. I want it back to the way it was in the 1950's. Capitalism and greed when it comes to basic rights do not mix.

    Obama Care will never work because they tried to keep Profit involved. Special interest groups ruined a good idea. You can't go back in time, but you can learn from the past.
    Magnum, I too am old enough to remember Dr. Olds coming to my home in the middle of the night when I was sick as a child. I also can understand how you appreciated how doctors worked then. I do believe that you have the wrong culprit when you attribute the change to profit motive. Profit has always existed in healthcare. When I was in dental practice, profit was not the overiding factor when dealing with patients individually, but profit was always an issue when looking at my practice as a whole. I had no salary. All I had was profit after all the bills and salaries wee paid. What was left, if any was my income or profit, so to speak. I never had a pension, overtime, sick leave or vacation paid. All were expenses, since I was in fact the company. If I didn't work, there was no revenue and the employees had to be paid.

    You said that you liked our system in the 1950's. Well, at that time the government WAS NOT INVOLVED IN HEALTHCARE!! Buzz once posted a chart showing the cost of healthcare as a % of GDP. It showed that it always had been fairly steady at about 6-7 percent until 1965 at which time the got got involved with the creation of Medicare and Medicaid. Almost simultaneously, the cost began to rise to what it is today. Don't look at profit as the culprit. Look at the government as the culprit. The government caused the problem and now it is amazing that one would think that it will fix the problem.

    When I was in practice, about half had insurance and half did not. Each day involved decisions of how and when a patient would pay. Some paid on time. some paid at the time service was rendered and some might never pay. One might consider it a burden that they would have to make such decisions but at times, I can assure you that the rewards were far greater that profit would have been. I am sure that I have enough stories to write a book if I chose.

    Never was a person told that I was booked that day if they called with an emergency. They were always told that if they came right on in, I would see them before I went home. Never did I charge a regular patient an after hours charge and for many years did I even charge one who I had never seen before. I must admit that when one person told me that they deliberately waited till after hours to call me because they knew they would not have to wait, I then started making a charge for after hours new patients. From the day I got a cell phone until the day before I retired, my office phone was forwarded when I was closed. I tell you these things so that you understand that while profit is necessary, there re other things that make the profession so special. Generally speaking, it is one of those things that is referred to as the doctor patient relationship. But when the gov. enters, it become the only thing relating to a doctor patient relationship.

    Let me give you some numbers. Today, less than half even apply to dental school, that did in 1970, when I applied. Every day, for every 2 who graduate from dental school, 3 retire. You can draw whatever conclusions you like as to why but you cannot avoid the fact that there will be more patients and less dentists. So JS, you may see the dentist telling YOU not to let the door knob hit YOU in the proverbial arse as you leave.

    I am happy that I made dentistry a career. the income was ok and the personal rewards were far greater than I could have ever imagined. But should I be making the decision today, I would not do it again. I have no doubt that I could make more money doing something else and the rewards outside of money will not be there again.

    I think you wish for the days that there was charity in healthcare and so do I. Government does a good job of eliminating it. Those who are so knowledgeable about the Canadian system, just ask them about the extent of charity in Canada. The answer is that THERE IS NONE. The fact is that there can be no charity when the government runs something.

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    The easiest solution is to just require hospitals, medical groups and other health care providers have a posted prices, a menu if you will, that applies to everyone who walks through the door. There should be no reason for something like in my case, when I had my cancer surgery, for the hospital to bill for over $120K and yet settle for less than $10K that the insurance company said was actually due. Posted prices that apply to everyone would go a long way in reducing costs and making the system more workable!

    T. Mac

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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Those who are so knowledgeable about the Canadian system, just ask them about the extent of charity in Canada. The answer is that THERE IS NONE. The fact is that there can be no charity when the government runs something.
    I'd like to treat you with respect, thank you for the charity work you gave to your clients over your long work career, in return would you mind not posting nonsense, please. How fortunate we are that our sick are less in need to wait on the whims and vagaries of charitable spirit to find healthcare. You will find anecdotal evidence of the GP who will spend whatever time it takes with a patient's visit even though they are paid per visit, likewise with after hour telephone calls and consultation for which the HC system provides no remuneration. Additionally, there is a strong framework to ensure our medical professionals have outlets for their generous spirit outside our borders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blind ambition View Post
    I'd like to treat you with respect, thank you for the charity work you gave to your clients over your long work career, in return would you mind not posting nonsense, please. How fortunate we are that our sick are less in need to wait on the whims and vagaries of charitable spirit to find healthcare. You will find anecdotal evidence of the GP who will spend whatever time it takes with a patient's visit even though they are paid per visit, likewise with after hour telephone calls and consultation for which the HC system provides no remuneration. Additionally, there is a strong framework to ensure our medical professionals have outlets for their generous spirit outside our borders.

    http://www.cma.ca/volunteering-opportunities
    I in no way meant to imply that the people of Canada were uncharitable. It does not surprise me that there is a "strong framework to ensure our medical professionals have outlets for their generous spirit(CHARITY) outside our borders". In fact it would not surprise me there is NO FRAMEWORK to ensure your medial professionals have outlets for their generous spirit INSIDE your borders.

    One correction. I NEVER had clients. I only had patients. Not in 35 years did I have a patient refer to themselves as a client.

    Personally, if need be, I had much rather wait on the whims and vagaries of charitable spirit to find healthcare than the rules, regulations, dependence and control of the government bureaucrat.

    The fact is no church, no community charitable organization, no HRC or AKC club can pay a doctor to provide charitable healthcare that it deems necessary. Nor can a doctor accept such payment. I do believe I am correct in these statements but you can correct me if I am wrong.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    I in no way meant to imply that the people of Canada were uncharitable. It does not surprise me that there is a "strong framework to ensure our medical professionals have outlets for their generous spirit(CHARITY) outside our borders". In fact it would not surprise me there is NO FRAMEWORK to ensure your medial professionals have outlets for their generous spirit INSIDE your borders.

    One correction. I NEVER had clients. I only had patients. Not in 35 years did I have a patient refer to themselves as a client. , we also refer to the recipients of medicine as patients but because I am in work mode I used client from personal habit, sorry

    Personally, if need be, I had much rather wait on the whims and vagaries of charitable spirit to find healthcare than the rules, regulations, dependence and control of the government bureaucrat. I don't see that as a fair trade especially from the patient's perspective. I don't know enough about how HMO's and Insurers operate in dealing with healthcare professionals prior to or now in the nascent days of the ACA to compare to the regulatory controls up here but I think it is fair to say that there have been complaints from

    The fact is no church, no community charitable organization, no HRC or AKC CKC? club can pay a doctor to provide charitable healthcare that it deems necessary. Nor can a doctor accept such payment. I do believe I am correct in these statements but you can correct me if I am wrong. On this side of the border there would be no need to provide charity to a resident for a medical proceedure. If a non resident was injured while at a test, I don't know what would happen. but no, private payment for medical care is not possible. I have private insurance healthcare coverage for travel to the US. With regards to charity organizations, there is much that they do to help with logistics expenses for family members to accompany the patient if care is not local and they are unable to pay the costs themselves.
    Like our system or don't, that is your choice. I hope members of this board will not object if I limit my contributions on this topic strictly to correcting misinformation on Canada's healthcare system.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by blind ambition View Post
    I'd like to treat you with respect, thank you for the charity work you gave to your clients over your long work career, in return would you mind not posting nonsense, please. How fortunate we are that our sick are less in need to wait on the whims and vagaries of charitable spirit to find healthcare. You will find anecdotal evidence of the GP who will spend whatever time it takes with a patient's visit even though they are paid per visit, likewise with after hour telephone calls and consultation for which the HC system provides no remuneration. Additionally, there is a strong framework to ensure our medical professionals have outlets for their generous spirit outside our borders.

    http://www.cma.ca/volunteering-opportunities
    I want to add that when one talks of charity, there can easily be a misunderstanding. What I did was because those who went before me set the example. I was one of the most who did the same thing. Later, I came to realize that my personal rewards were far greater than any charity that I might have provided. If there is respect to be given, the profession is what deserves the respect, not the individual.

    You have also criticized me as posting nonsense. If you will be specific, I will be glad to respond. As to any anecdotals concerning the providers in your country, I don't think I made any comment concerning the conduct of the providers in your country. My only comments concerning your system have been the laws governing your system which do not allow a provider to work for the patient and doesn't allow the patients the freedom to seek the care they choose and pay for it within their own country. Even though I don't like the Canadian system, I certainly have no objection to it for Canada. I just don't want to have it here.

    My post was really directed to Magnum since we are about the same age. He talked of the times that the doctor might be paid with a dinner and a desert. I do believe that with the Canadian system, such an act would be illegal.

  9. #29
    Senior Member .44 magnum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Magnum, I too am old enough to remember Dr. Olds coming to my home in the middle of the night when I was sick as a child. I also can understand how you appreciated how doctors worked then. I do believe that you have the wrong culprit when you attribute the change to profit motive. Profit has always existed in healthcare. When I was in dental practice, profit was not the overiding factor when dealing with patients individually, but profit was always an issue when looking at my practice as a whole. I had no salary. All I had was profit after all the bills and salaries wee paid. What was left, if any was my income or profit, so to speak. I never had a pension, overtime, sick leave or vacation paid. All were expenses, since I was in fact the company. If I didn't work, there was no revenue and the employees had to be paid.

    You said that you liked our system in the 1950's. Well, at that time the government WAS NOT INVOLVED IN HEALTHCARE!! Buzz once posted a chart showing the cost of healthcare as a % of GDP. It showed that it always had been fairly steady at about 6-7 percent until 1965 at which time the got got involved with the creation of Medicare and Medicaid. Almost simultaneously, the cost began to rise to what it is today. Don't look at profit as the culprit. Look at the government as the culprit. The government caused the problem and now it is amazing that one would think that it will fix the problem.

    When I was in practice, about half had insurance and half did not. Each day involved decisions of how and when a patient would pay. Some paid on time. some paid at the time service was rendered and some might never pay. One might consider it a burden that they would have to make such decisions but at times, I can assure you that the rewards were far greater that profit would have been. I am sure that I have enough stories to write a book if I chose.

    Never was a person told that I was booked that day if they called with an emergency. They were always told that if they came right on in, I would see them before I went home. Never did I charge a regular patient an after hours charge and for many years did I even charge one who I had never seen before. I must admit that when one person told me that they deliberately waited till after hours to call me because they knew they would not have to wait, I then started making a charge for after hours new patients. From the day I got a cell phone until the day before I retired, my office phone was forwarded when I was closed. I tell you these things so that you understand that while profit is necessary, there re other things that make the profession so special. Generally speaking, it is one of those things that is referred to as the doctor patient relationship. But when the gov. enters, it become the only thing relating to a doctor patient relationship.

    Let me give you some numbers. Today, less than half even apply to dental school, that did in 1970, when I applied. Every day, for every 2 who graduate from dental school, 3 retire. You can draw whatever conclusions you like as to why but you cannot avoid the fact that there will be more patients and less dentists. So JS, you may see the dentist telling YOU not to let the door knob hit YOU in the proverbial arse as you leave.

    I am happy that I made dentistry a career. the income was ok and the personal rewards were far greater than I could have ever imagined. But should I be making the decision today, I would not do it again. I have no doubt that I could make more money doing something else and the rewards outside of money will not be there again.

    I think you wish for the days that there was charity in healthcare and so do I. Government does a good job of eliminating it. Those who are so knowledgeable about the Canadian system, just ask them about the extent of charity in Canada. The answer is that THERE IS NONE. The fact is that there can be no charity when the government runs something.
    You are the guy I am talking about. You made an honest living without making it into an industry.

    I also do not feel Government runs things very efficiently. But I do believe allowing Medicine to become big business is morally wrong. We do not need Obama Care to be a great nation. We need laws that put the people who made Medicine about big profit by buying up hospitals and turning them into a Corporation out of business. We need to go back to the idea of Non-Profit communtity hospitals and private Doctor's who choose to be a part of a local hospital. I am all for letting Doctors set their own rates as free enterprise works itself out. Individuals I admire, corporations are just bean counters. We as a Nation should demand that no single individual or Corporation monopolize health care.

    Individual citizens should have the freedom to buy insurance or not, or take a job that offers insurance as an incentive to work there.. but if you are going to run a Federally mandated program it should not cost one dime out of pocket for any citizen. A program needs to be set up where the General fund supports every citizen equally. If we do not have the money to do that, don't try to have a program like ObamaCare that is too costly for those in the lower middle class. The rich, well off, can get every health issue taken care of today, so can the poor. It is the blue collar worker that is going to be hurt with Obama Care. Insurance companies are going to be the big winners in Obama Care.
    I like one-shot kills where possible and prefer to do all my hunting before I shoot. ..... Elmer Keith



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by .44 magnum View Post
    You are the guy I am talking about. You made an honest living without making it into an industry.

    I also do not feel Government runs things very efficiently. But I do believe allowing Medicine to become big business is morally wrong. We do not need Obama Care to be a great nation. We need laws that put the people who made Medicine about big profit by buying up hospitals and turning them into a Corporation out of business. We need to go back to the idea of Non-Profit communtity hospitals and private Doctor's who choose to be a part of a local hospital. I am all for letting Doctors set their own rates as free enterprise works itself out. Individuals I admire, corporations are just bean counters. We as a Nation should demand that no single individual or Corporation monopolize health care.

    Individual citizens should have the freedom to buy insurance or not, or take a job that offers insurance as an incentive to work there.. but if you are going to run a Federally mandated program it should not cost one dime out of pocket for any citizen. A program needs to be set up where the General fund supports every citizen equally. If we do not have the money to do that, don't try to have a program like ObamaCare that is too costly for those in the lower middle class. The rich, well off, can get every health issue taken care of today, so can the poor. It is the blue collar worker that is going to be hurt with Obama Care. Insurance companies are going to be the big winners in Obama Care.
    Very good post. Thank you ! .........................
    charly

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