The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 33

Thread: Hillmanns methods - questions and opinions

  1. #11
    Senior Member kdeckels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    300

    Default

    Jim, I would disagree, that's a pretty awesome accomplishment , 4 MH in the household at the same time.
    HR True Grits Finer Edge

  2. #12
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Illinois/Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,241

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Little View Post
    +, it works for some
    -, it doesn't for some
    i believe dogs learn through pressure, Hillman is void of pressure. IMO the sooner dogs learn to deal with pressure the sooner they learn to comply and become team players. Like some dog foods, when there are 50% of the finalists at a national or Am who have been 100% trained with this method I might be inclined to study and use but until then, I will continue to use the Carr methods every A list and most B,C & D trainers use.
    I would disagree with this statement on 2 levels. Bill's program introduces pressure in such a manner that the pup doesn't even realize it. I would watch the program if I were you. I would also disagree with your statement that all "A" list trainers use Rex Carr's method. I think they use modifications of that method. And that is why Mike Lardy and Andy Attar were able to get soft bitches to run hard at a time when no one else could. It is more towards a Hillman method of reading your dog, let's call it a refined Rex Carr method, than it would be the old classic Rex Carr one-button collar method.
    Susan

    FC Tribute to Justice, JH "Honor"
    FC AFC Contempt of Court "Ruckus"
    Medal Of Honor, QAA "Valor"
    HRCH Kirby's High Sierra, SH, QAA "Kirby"
    HRCH Niki Snowbird, SH, QAA "Niki"
    Southland Order In the Court, QAA "Gavel" July 17, 2002- March 24, 2013
    Southland Rusty Nail - derby points, qual placements "Rusty"
    www.justiceretrievers.com

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mountain Duck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Chilhowie, VA
    Posts
    212

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    This is what Bill calls 'Balance' and part of the art of dog training that no 'program' can teach you. Each dog requires a different amount of excitement and obedience. That is what we mean when we say 'balance' those two elements according to each dog.
    Tammy, I'm sure you've probably seen it, but it's worth noting and pointing out that, in the Revised puppy DVD, there is a lot of discussion by Bill about understanding and balancing the variety of temperaments one might encounter with different puppies. He looks at 3 new puppies (plus Nick from the original), and expounds on how each one will require different sequences in order to achieve the desired results. Lots of really good discussion on being flexible as a trainer to suit your dog's temperament, as opposed to expecting the dog to change to suit your's.

    I liked his analogy of the compliant nature of Nick, as that of a smooth running, easy driving V6, compared to the hard charging, less compliant nature of The Drifter's big V8!

    While there certainly is an art to reading your dog, I think if your willing to really dig into Bill's way of training, you'll find he offers a lot of philosophy and thoughts that will certainly help anyone improve in this highly important aspect of dog training.
    Wildlife and Outdoor Photography

    http://www.ericrutherford.net

  4. #14
    Senior Member CHMHFCR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    145

    Default

    T-Pines and TBell nailed it on the head, and both of them are really experts in understanding Bill's methods. Alex Washburn and Jeff Talley are the two amateurs I can think of right away that have been extremely successful in field trials through the use of Bill's methods. Justice Dog has also hit the the nail on the head with one exception. It involves the use of the word "pressure". If you watch his dvd's carefully, you will not hear him refer to pressure. That is not what Bill's teachings are about. It is about reinforcement. The collar is simply meant to convey an electric signal to the dog that reinforces the behavior he is already doing. It is hard to wrap your head around this way of thinking and Bill's ideas initially. Especially if you have been raised through the methods that have utilized for at least the last 25 years. It seems at first that Bill's methods take lots of additional time to teach, and most folks (at least at this point in time) are unwilling to spend the extra time, patience, and overall practice that is required to get the results from Bill's program. The funny thing is, after you are on track from the initial teachings of the program, the advanced training goes briskly, with amazing results from the dog, who runs with great confidence and ability, and you, as a trainer and handler, can now conduct business without all the frustration that is present through other current methods. 25 years ago, or so, Mike Lardy came on the scene and revolutionized dog training as people knew it. He educated many as how to improve their communication and relationship with our dog buddies, and how to get them to do unimaginable tasks that we were asking of them. It is my opinion, after working with Bill for the past few years that training retrievers as we know it is about to change again as people warm up to Bill's methods and begin to understand them. It only requires an open mind on your part, and practice, practice, practice. One of Bill's great attributes is that he is not about "washing out" dogs. Of course, realizing some dogs are not cut out to do this kind of work. But, Bill is more about finding a well bred dog to start with, then taking that dog, and making him the best dog he can be. Not on a soap box, but, I see lots of people on here that make comments about Bill's program that really don't understand it completely. All it takes is an open mind and dedication and practice. I am just happy that we are in on these training methods from the start of these changes in how retriever training will ultimately come to be.

    Clint Catledge
    Sherie Catledge
    Bear Country Retrievers and Gun Dogs
    www.bearcountryretrievers.com

  5. #15
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    1,009

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Duck View Post
    Tammy, I'm sure you've probably seen it, but it's worth noting and pointing out that, in the Revised puppy DVD, there is a lot of discussion by Bill about understanding and balancing the variety of temperaments one might encounter with different puppies. He looks at 3 new puppies (plus Nick from the original), and expounds on how each one will require different sequences in order to achieve the desired results. Lots of really good discussion on being flexible as a trainer to suit your dog's temperament, as opposed to expecting the dog to change to suit your's.

    I liked his analogy of the compliant nature of Nick, as that of a smooth running, easy driving V6, compared to the hard charging, less compliant nature of The Drifter's big V8!

    While there certainly is an art to reading your dog, I think if your willing to really dig into Bill's way of training, you'll find he offers a lot of philosophy and thoughts that will certainly help anyone improve in this highly important aspect of dog training.
    Strongly agree!

    I can't speak to the approach of other programs, but I believe that Hillmann's philosophy and method really does facilitate rapid development of this non-verbal communication between dog and trainer. It starts with making the dogs attitude the number one priority and teaching the basic lesson of how to use excitement and obedience to achieve and maintain the optimal balanced attitude.

    Every lesson evolves (by design) and is based upon what the pup is communicating to the trainer. What does the pup need more of right now? What does the pup need less of right now? How do I communicate this to the pup in a kind and respectful way that builds upon the trust and partnership of our relationship?

    This is how someone can learn the subtleties of reading the dog using the Hillmann approach. Reading the dog is only half of it. The other half is awareness and refinement of the trainer's non-verbal communication and then teaching the dog to understand what you want him to learn without harsh methods.

    Jim

  6. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,356

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TBell View Post
    This is what Bill calls 'Balance' and part of the art of dog training that no 'program' can teach you. Each dog requires a different amount of excitement and obedience. That is what we mean when we say 'balance' those two elements according to each dog.



    These statements about the Hillmann program are from someone who has not watched any of Bill's videos at length.

    There are many trainers who are old school and will remain old school. Those methods were effective for a large number of dogs who were able to take the 'pressure'. Many of the old time Labradors could virtually take huge amounts of pressure. I've heard of trainers using two collars instead of one to dish out the 'pressure'. As I said, this worked for a number of dogs, mostly Labradors who could take the brutality, however, there were many other breeds and some more sensitive Labs who could not.

    The original E-collars had one level and it was HIGH. Then there came the collars with 5 levels and each had a plug which was inserted into the receiver end and could not be changed at will. These were the only tools available to Carr at the time, so he could not have even considered using small amounts of 'pressure'.

    The E-collars of today which allow small adjustments in the stimulation level right at the transmitter have changed everything. It is a blessing for the dogs, and the result is that more breeds are becoming competitive. Bill's methods expound upon this.

    One last note......Bill has taught his methods to several amateurs who have been very successful. I'll mention one, Jeff Talley and Cutter who went on to win the National Amateur. Most of these amateurs are out training their dogs to be competitive and not on RTF giving dog training tips, so I thought I would take a moment to mention that.
    Nice post Tammy.
    I especially liked the last sentence

  7. #17

    Default

    Just a question; could it be said that Bill Hillmans training methods are closer to Jim Dobbs than to Rex Carrs (or the present day Rex Carrs)?

  8. #18
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    N. Cackalacky
    Posts
    2,683

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Pines View Post
    It starts with making the dogs attitude the number one priority and teaching the basic lesson of how to use excitement and obedience to achieve and maintain the optimal balanced attitude.
    That is the main thing I like about Bill's approach. In the yard he is all about keeping the dog excited while in the field he tries to balance down the natural excitement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olddog View Post
    Just a question; could it be said that Bill Hillmans training methods are closer to Jim Dobbs than to Rex Carrs (or the present day Rex Carrs)?
    One could say that. When I first saw his stuff, Dobbs immediately came to mind. The more I watch it and talk with folks who really are into it, the less apt the comparison seems to me, but it is not totally off base.

  9. #19
    Senior Member TBell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Piney Point on Sardis Lake, MS
    Posts
    507

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Olddog View Post
    Just a question; could it be said that Bill Hillmans training methods are closer to Jim Dobbs than to Rex Carrs (or the present day Rex Carrs)?
    Just spoke with Mary, and she thinks Bill's use of the E-collar is a very light collar Carr method which uses the collar to reinforce a command. The Dobbs method was to use the continuous button on the collar until compliance of the command.

    Regardless, Bill's program will teach you a very new method of communicating with your dog. The dog is an animal which communicates mainly by visual cues as opposed to verbal cues. You begin each training session by getting your dog's attention and creating 'excitement'.

    Think about it this way......it is similar to having two young dogs playing in the yard. What is the first thing they do before they begin to play with each other? They look each other in the eye and 'engage' each other is some way such as a jump or pounce. Then the games begin.

    You will do the same with your dog, but you are teaching him a new game. It is a human game, but he will enjoy it just the same. You now show him the game piece or toy. You present a bumper, and you show him that it is fun to chase this new toy. You create excitement for him by throwing this new toy and letting him chase it which he likes very much.

    Now you begin to 'teach' him new rules to the game. The new rules are taught in very short sessions, and he learns that if he complies with these new rules, he will get to chase that new toy again and again. Before he gets bored with the new rules, you let him 'play' again with the new toy without any rules. You alternate these 'play' and 'learn' sessions based on the dogs temperament. Some dogs need more 'play' sessions and some dogs need more 'learn' sessions.

    Now to reinforce the rules, you use small collar stimulations which will let him know you are the referee and he must follow the rules in order to get the toy. That is his motivation to continue to play the game with you.....to get the toy. If you make the game fun and the rules fair, he will play this game with you for a very long time. If you make the game too hard too quickly, he will loose interest in your game. It is up to you the umpire, or the traffic cop, to teach him the rules in a way that he will be a team player and you a fair umpire. Together you will both learn and have great time if the game remains fun and fair. You can both become a team and go on to play the game to the best of your abilities for a very long time.

  10. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Newf View Post
    Just finished watching the Hillmann puppy DVD. So far I'm impressed with his training method. But I have a few questions.
    1) do his additional DVDs (land and water fundamentals) continue to build upon the work done in the puppy DVD following the same methods?
    2) Wondering about the success others have had with his force fetch method (Have not seen it yet, but getting that DVD in a day or two)
    3) other than dogs owned and trained by the Hillmanns, does anybody own any MH, FC, AFC etc titled dogs trained solely using Hillmanns methods? Or know of any?
    4) For those that have trained dogs with other the other programs as well as Hillmanns, have you perceived any benefits or drawbacks when following Hillmann?
    Bill gave a seminar for our club (Cape Fear Retriever Club) back in 2010, not long after his first puppy training DVD came out. All the participants had dogs and there were probably 6 really young puppies (by young I mean less than 6 months) in the group. Of those pups, I am pretty sure all of them are running All-Age stakes and have placements. One of the pups won an Open at 3 years old. That's a pretty good success rate regardless of whether the dogs went on to professional trainers or were amateur trained!

    Andrea

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •