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Thread: Comparison of drills with and without collar use

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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Default Comparison of drills with and without collar use

    Since there were questions as to the collar use in the last video of Hope working the wagon wheel drill, I thought I would show everyone why the collar was being used.

    The first video is Hope with no collar on at all with no edits or sound.

    Next, same drill, same spot, immediately after, using the collar. Again, this is raw, uncut footage. A few things to note. Note there is no vocalization or adverse physical reaction from the dog when the collar is used. Note how much more collected and attentive she is to her work. Notice the lack of play behaviors. Note the increased precision in her movements.

    As you can seen Hope is capable of the drill and just has to collect herself. This is literally the second time she's seen it and she does a decent job without a collar on, but it needs to be better.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-28-2014 at 06:27 AM.
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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Darrin Greene

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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Darrin Greene

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    Would this be a good example of a collar wise dog?
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    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A team View Post
    Would this be a good example of a collar wise dog?



    Good point. If not it's on it's way.
    Darrin why was the dog not wearing the collar in the first place?

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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Shaver View Post
    Good point. If not it's on it's way.
    Darrin why was the dog not wearing the collar in the first place?
    Because someone told me wagon wheel was a no pressure drill in the other thread Steve. The dog is in a collar 99% of the time outside her kennel, whether it's getting used or not. I don't ever run her without one except in a test (which she hasn't done yet). I don't know how to prevent her being "collarwise" other than that.

    I don't feel that the difference here is that she knows she's not wearing a collar. In fact, I challenge the "collar wise" concept to begin with (another thread). She's not willfully disobedient or testing me. I don't believe dogs really think that way. She just can't contain her energy. It's my inability to re-enforce higher levels of precision and compliance lets her be loose. No different than any other high drive dog. As I said, she knows the basic exercise but she is a very high dog with minimal training on this type of stuff (don't be fooled by her age). Look how high she is on this boring drill. Imagine what she'll be like in a trial.

    So my question for all those folks is... how do you get a nice clean, precise performance other than to reenforce the standard you're looking for? In this case all four operant quadrants are in use. Is there something more effective? I'm using the collar at a low enough level that there are no severe reactions and minimal, if any loss in drive level. I don't know what not pushing the button would do for me except let her learn that she can dance around and be sloppy.

    I figure if people can tell me I did it wrong, then they should be able to show me a better way. I'm hoping the with/without comparison allows that commentary to take place because there is a clearer picture of what I'm trying to achieve.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-28-2014 at 06:24 AM.
    Darrin Greene

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    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Darrin Greene

    Serious question---Don't you think it is the trainer that makes the dog collar wise and not the presence or absence of the collar? For example, giving commands without immediate (.5 s) correction. Think about it. Even a command/cue for a dog's attention should get immediate reinforcement or correction.
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    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    I think you know I was not saying to not wear the collar...THAT has nothing to do with my comments. My dogs also wear a collar 95% of time while training. But that does not mean I am pushing buttons.

    I am not going to get into a I can do it better than you can pissing match. My comments were only that the wagon wheel is generally supposed to be a no pressure drill as described by top pros (that you and I will never match) and that you were using pressure throughout, on the dog's first day of doing the drill. You are obviously training in a different manner ......
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    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    No pissing match Bridgette. I am honestly asking you (or anyone else) to explain to me why the collar/lead/heeling stick approach works better. Saying that "the top pros teach it that way" doesn't really help me understand anything. I know you better than to believe you do anything on blind faith. You (and others) have tested this stuff out on numerous dogs. Help me understand the comparison, since you brought it up.
    Darrin Greene

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    After watching both videos I would submit that your level of success on the drill increased the second time for two reasons neither of which had to do with the collar. The first is that you slowed down considerably and the second is that she was already warmed up to the drill and settled down. I do have my dogs wear an e collar during this drill but only enforce go, stop, and come. I think that you and your dog will have increased success if you slow way down. A dog that powerful is most likely going to start springing off the line on her own in later work if you continue to send that fast. Not a criticism just an observation.

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