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Thread: Comparison of drills with and without collar use

  1. #11
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    No pissing match Bridgette. I am honestly asking you (or anyone else) to explain to me why the collar/lead/heeling stick approach works better. Saying that "the top pros teach it that way" doesn't really help me understand anything. I know you better than to believe you do anything on blind faith. You (and others) have tested this stuff out on numerous dogs. Help me understand the comparison, since you brought it up.


    Collar/lead/heeling stick approach works better than what?
    Well I believe that you should show the dog both sides. If you use praise or treats for right actions and negative for wrong actions. you are making things more black and white for the dog. Yes, no, black and white it doesn't get any clearer than that

  2. #12
    Senior Member Breck's Avatar
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    Might try..unless dog is going or coming, butt on ground 100%.
    Along same vein, unless going or coming, take hold of tab.
    Best to snag tab as dogs head gets to you vs after they've spun and sat.
    Last edited by Breck; 03-28-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Bridget Bodine's Avatar
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    I BELIEVE dogs get more neurotic when you are always pushing a button.(your dog ,for instance, gets jiggy and starts to hide behind your leg, even though she is well versed in the collar) I BELIEVE even if the dog understands the shock is a correction,and behave appropriately in response to the shock, they don't understand what the shock IS. And that too much shocking becomes overwhelming for any given individual . I BELIEVE that a dog does understand a physical correction, he is physical all day , bumping into things, being touched by human or beast. He KNOWS what PHYSICAL is ,he knows if you pop with a stick , that is physical.This THING (shock) that comes from nowhere is not definite for them and that is what I BELIEVE the difference is in the pressure of the collar. I just had this discussion with my pointing dog trainer yesterday. Just my personal beliefs.
    I do the wagon wheel in the "traditional " manner of little to no pressure, I have not experimented with other methods there
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Sharon Potter's Avatar
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    Darrin, for me, the first video segued into the second. She had started to settle partway into the first, non-collar video and that carried on into the "with collar" video. Had you done them in reverse order, I think you'd have seen much of the same stuff, in the same order. I noticed a bit of reaction to the collar also. I did see a few things that may help you. Slow down, like you did in the second video, only even more. Make a correction with your body/leg when she does the leg slam when coming to heel. And slow down. Be aware of your body angle, not just your feet, when lining her up. And slow down.
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  5. #15
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    Darrin, youve got me {and probably your dog} very confused. You said you didn't use the collar in Video 1 because you had been told that when doing the WW you shouldn't use collar pressure. Good advice IMHO!! Yet on video 2 you did use the collar.
    WHY?

    I also agree with others who point out that day 2 is always going to show marked improvement. That improvement comes from the learning curve; NOT from the collar pressure

    Also I reiterate their message of slow down. I'd further add that in the beginning you need to have more pronounced body movements, but as you progress you gradually make your body movements more subtle. Eventually you want the dog responding to almost imperceptible body movements, so as to get a subtle 1 degree click in direction change as to where they are looking {and hopefully going}. As you advance it helps to use softer and softer voice and body cues also.

    Lastly why don't you use orange bumpers for your outside bumpers? Their use helps the dog to build confidence that if they line correctly with you that you can get them to an UNSEEN destination

    I like the dog and how she works with you. She looks like a keeper!!

  6. #16
    Senior Member Cass's Avatar
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    I think collar wise is kind of a silly thing... if you have a dog that doesn't know the difference of when it has the collar on and when it doesn't... well, it can't be that bright IMO.

  7. #17
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cass View Post
    I think collar wise is kind of a silly thing... if you have a dog that doesn't know the difference of when it has the collar on and when it doesn't... well, it can't be that bright IMO.
    My thoughts exactly!

    Any dog that is capable of performing high level retrieving work is certainly capable of understanding what is going on around him, including whether he is wearing his collar. Hell, they can be wearing their collar and still notice if you aren't carrying the remote ... try it sometime.

    This notion that you will sometime be able to discard the collar and still be able perform this stuff to their level of capability is nonsense. Dogs are dogs and we love 'em. But they're like 3-year-old kids. They have things they like to do ... misbehaviors ... that they will try to get away with when they think they can. Part of a healthy relationship with your dog is that they understand you are the "boss". They don't have as much trouble with that as some people do.

    The collar is a disciplinary tool to help establish this when necessary. Hopefully, it's use becomes less and less necessary as time goes by but remove it, or whatever other toll you use, and the dog's standards will quickly slip.

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  8. #18
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Maybe I am wrong but it appears to me that you are nicking the dog for fairly minor stuff. Forty-four seconds into the second video, for example.

    I think you nicking your dog in a single drill more than I do in an entire week.

    Not saying it is right or wrong, just that I'm surprised.

    Wondering what you are wanting to get out of doing wagon wheel. I thought it was to teach the dog-handler team work.

    Newbie regards...
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  9. #19
    Senior Member mostlygold's Avatar
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    I am currently starting this drill with my young dog. When she returns with the bumper each time, she sits crooked, with her butt out. I step forward and using collar tab to try and get her straight, but often she just sits the same way. My question is - should I correct this sit with a pop from heeling stick? Use the stick to help guide her into place? Or just keep working on it the way I have? I don't want the entire drill to come down to corrections for bad sits but it is very important that she learns to sit straight. I have been working on a drill separate from wagon wheel where she just comes in from about 6 FT out and I either have her sit in front or come to heel (much like front and finish drill in obedience). She almost always sits lazy on one hip and it has to be corrected. Do you think using a collar in this separate drill with low pressure could help get this sit straight?

    Thanks for your time

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  10. #20
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitty View Post
    Maybe I am wrong but it appears to me that you are nicking the dog for fairly minor stuff. Forty-four seconds into the second video, for example.

    I think you nicking your dog in a single drill more than I do in an entire week.

    Not saying it is right or wrong, just that I'm surprised.

    Wondering what you are wanting to get out of doing wagon wheel. I thought it was to teach the dog-handler team work.

    Newbie regards...
    Generally, that's what it's used for but not what I'm trying to accomplish with it. Hope already knows how to move with me.

    The collar use is different that what you're used to so I can't even comment there.
    Darrin Greene

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