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Thread: Comparison of drills with and without collar use

  1. #21
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostlygold View Post
    I am currently starting this drill with my young dog. When she returns with the bumper each time, she sits crooked, with her butt out. I step forward and using collar tab to try and get her straight, but often she just sits the same way. My question is - should I correct this sit with a pop from heeling stick? Use the stick to help guide her into place? Or just keep working on it the way I have? I don't want the entire drill to come down to corrections for bad sits but it is very important that she learns to sit straight. I have been working on a drill separate from wagon wheel where she just comes in from about 6 FT out and I either have her sit in front or come to heel (much like front and finish drill in obedience). She almost always sits lazy on one hip and it has to be corrected. Do you think using a collar in this separate drill with low pressure could help get this sit straight?

    Thanks for your time

    Dawn
    No, I wouldn't recommend you do that at all. I would stick with the traditional methods if I were you. What you're seeing is a bit of an experiment in collar use Dawn. The feedback from everyone is helpful on other points but I am using the collar in a manner most here wouldn't subscribe to.

    I don't think it's causing me any problems but I wouldn't want you to think you could just start using the collar on a low setting and get the same result. There are hours and hours of conditioning and reenforcement behind what you're seeing. It is a refinement of already known principals as opposed to a teaching drill.

    OK Bridgette - I get your earlier point.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-28-2014 at 12:08 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostlygold View Post
    I am currently starting this drill with my young dog. When she returns with the bumper each time, she sits crooked, with her butt out. I step forward and using collar tab to try and get her straight, but often she just sits the same way. My question is - should I correct this sit with a pop from heeling stick? Use the stick to help guide her into place? Or just keep working on it the way I have? I don't want the entire drill to come down to corrections for bad sits but it is very important that she learns to sit straight. I have been working on a drill separate from wagon wheel where she just comes in from about 6 FT out and I either have her sit in front or come to heel (much like front and finish drill in obedience). She almost always sits lazy on one hip and it has to be corrected. Do you think using a collar in this separate drill with low pressure could help get this sit straight?

    Thanks for your time

    Dawn
    Dawn, I don't believe your dog is ready for this drill. I would clean up its sitting and heeling issues in an OB setting. Get that straightened out {doesn't have to be perfect} and you will be able to get out of WW what it is intended for

  3. #23
    Senior Member mtncntrykid's Avatar
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    On the lazy sit, just step on the foot that is kicked out to the side. She will pull it back in under her and sit strait. It is going to be a constant reminder you are going to have to do. Hopefully less and less as you correct.

  4. #24
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    No pissing match Bridgette. I am honestly asking you (or anyone else) to explain to me why the collar/lead/heeling stick approach works better. Saying that "the top pros teach it that way" doesn't really help me understand anything. I know you better than to believe you do anything on blind faith. You (and others) have tested this stuff out on numerous dogs. Help me understand the comparison, since you brought it up.
    I am not going to say yea or nay to how you wear the collar. And as to anyone's approach to WW drill you can do it however you wish and if you feel your way get results then great!
    In case you were thinking I meant no collar, I was only pointing out Mr. Lardy's write up on WW drill. And I believe the jist of the article stated "And remember-no collar corrections are used at this stage of the game for making wrong decisions." Not to not wear the collar. The heeling stick was used for guidence. Obviously this is when the dog is beginning to learn the team work involved with cues you give him. Lining the dog up so his head and spine are facing where they should be are important etc. Lardy's approach is just another way of doing the WW drill. I prefer to teach first not use the collar! IHMO
    Last edited by Mary Lynn Metras; 03-28-2014 at 01:36 PM.
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  6. #26
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    Looks good Darrin
    I must be dopey because I didn't see many corrections . Only re-enforcements
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  7. #27
    Senior Member mitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Generally, that's what it's used for but not what I'm trying to accomplish with it. Hope already knows how to move with me.

    The collar use is different that what you're used to so I can't even comment there.
    Actually in your post #6 I thought you explained that you were trying to use the drill to practice line manners, which I categorize as team work. What I see is a fast dog with an impatient handler. At that 44 second mark you have nicked her at least three times in as many seconds. The instant she has her bottom at heel you send her for the bumper. I think some other folks suggested that you slow down as well.
    Renee P

  8. #28

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    I'm late to the party on this thread but here's my 2 cents. I don't use e-collars so........I'd like to see the dog in the first video walking calmly at heel with no ground sniffing. And no mouthing the bumper throughout the drill solid; hold conditioning. And as others have said slow down the drill with a high drive dog. I wouldn't even do this drill until I took care of the other problems first; whether I was using an e-collar or not. But I train for a calm focused dog and I don't run hunt test/trials and such. So this may not be relevant to your training goals. Good Luck!

  9. #29
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    Every dog is different. Read your dog. Move quick with a slow dog. Move slow with a fast dog. Teach then enforce. I think these are the lessons we are seeing in Darrin's video. I don't see it so much as a collar/no collar testament. If Hope is having a little trouble with her ob, maybe that should be moved into a separate lesson. I think Dawn's use of a tab is just about ideal for wagon wheel. The dog can concentrate on the lesson at hand without the discombobulation of collar or stick pressure. Even with your "different" collar use, (I don't think its all that different, sort of like Hillman's) you are not helping the dog learn to concentrate on the job at hand when she is visibly reacting to the nicks. If I've learned anything at all having the "high" dog of all time, it is that you can never go too slow or break the lessons down enough to simplify and get success. Too bad I learned them too late! How old is Hope?
    Carol,
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Mary Lynn Metras's Avatar
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    Watch them again, Darrin. Very nice dog. he is really trying! Thanks for sharing.
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