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Thread: Stop All Training? Or just retrieves?

  1. #21
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    Okay I am still relatively new and again agree to get a trainer that is willing TO SHOW YOU (since it is of no benefit to just have them do it for you as you will always have to send the dog out) the FF process and identify a trouble spot.

    However, reading some of the above posts I am somewhat alarmed: no retrieves during FF and worst no free time except to go to the bathroom, FF, and eat WOW!!

    My dog would have found a new owner if I did that. That seems like a prison sentence instead of a integral building block in a training program that allows the dog to do a fun activity but under control and in the face of pressure.

    They remind me of the coach that would scream at players and make them run wind sprints till they puke (I had a few). They may get short term results but you suck all the fun out of something that at its core should be fun. Worse you are at high risk to kill the dog's spirit.

    This is exactly why I FF my own dog. I know when to push and when not to. When to lay off and when to press. The result, a FF dog that is insane about retrieving, and even better relationship between the two of us (since I was in it with them), and not a single purposeful drop since.
    I think being that you re new to this,,you need to play it safe. You don.t have the insight yet to understand what Julie was saying to you. Most pro's keep the dogs on the truck while working thus the dogs are kenneled and ready to go again when it their turn.,, ,but I almost always do marks with ff. They are 2 different contexts and as long as you keep it that way the dog won't get sour in the field. Most people try to ff their dog in the field while still in the process of ff. Thats where the sourness comes from. If you let the dog drop birds in front of you and don;t make a stink about it,,,it is actually theroputic for the dog. ( The marking that is ) And the dog will not put the 2 events together. Once the dog is past forced to pile you cn strt to gently enforce it in the field and the transition goes without a glitch. wHEN TRANSITIONING TO FIELD YOU THROW HAND HELD BUMPERS FIRST before using gunners so nothing bad can erupt. Typo not yelling,,,,The marking helps pick the dog up and helps keep a good attitude which is essential for proper learning,,,
    Also try getting rid of obedience during retrieving for while. May be your expecting him to be to obedient to often and in the wrong situation thus squelching his drive.

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 04-09-2014 at 08:08 AM.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  2. #22
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    I agree with hail down 2012 got to be careful about advice. Best bet is to seek out someone with experience in trained fetch or if you want to call it force fetch. But I would check out the teething. All is not lost your pup is young and it sounds like you are very conscientious about your training which is the most important thing for your dog.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member jrrichar's Avatar
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    Pete and Julie:

    Didn't want to get onto anybody on what they do with their dogs. All that I was trying to do was simply tell the OP that it might be a rather extreme move for someone who is not a professional trainer and might end up in a worse position to seclude the dog except for FF, eating, and bathroom.

    Do I think your way is wrong or right...like anything else I think it depends on the dog. However, in my opinion I think you are selling a majority of dogs short in their ability to comprehend the difference between work and play. You are right, I am new to retriever training but I am also paid as a behavioral neuropharmacologist to know the elements of learning from a operant and classic conditioning background. I don't just go along with a method because it has worked (plenty of trainers are very guilty of this) without factoring in the context (assuming the endpoint is the same). Some will say, who cares FF is for the dog to grab something and hold on. However, there is a process of learning that guides this (conditioning) and assuming that one must pull away stimulus to achieve this learning in a blanketed mode might be good in one context but very bad in another.

    Personally, like another post, the difference between work and play was cemented long before FF. My dogs have no problem identifying the difference whether in the yard or the field.

    The OP should find out for themselves what works/doesn't for their dog through the help of a pro trainer that is willing to work with them to identify the mistakes that were made. If the trainer does it for him, he learns nothing and more than likely will rely on a trainer for all future FF. I am not saying it is bad to not FF your dog, all I am saying is that knowledge/experience provides options.

  4. #24
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    Pete and Julie:

    Didn't want to get onto anybody on what they do with their dogs. All that I was trying to do was simply tell the OP that it might be a rather extreme move for someone who is not a professional trainer and might end up in a worse position to seclude the dog except for FF, eating, and bathroom.

    Do I think your way is wrong or right...like anything else I think it depends on the dog. However, in my opinion I think you are selling a majority of dogs short in their ability to comprehend the difference between work and play. You are right, I am new to retriever training but I am also paid as a behavioral neuropharmacologist to know the elements of learning from a operant and classic conditioning background. I don't just go along with a method because it has worked (plenty of trainers are very guilty of this) without factoring in the context (assuming the endpoint is the same). Some will say, who cares FF is for the dog to grab something and hold on. However, there is a process of learning that guides this (conditioning) and assuming that one must pull away stimulus to achieve this learning in a blanketed mode might be good in one context but very bad in another.

    Personally, like another post, the difference between work and play was cemented long before FF. My dogs have no problem identifying the difference whether in the yard or the field.

    The OP should find out for themselves what works/doesn't for their dog through the help of a pro trainer that is willing to work with them to identify the mistakes that were made. If the trainer does it for him, he learns nothing and more than likely will rely on a trainer for all future FF. I am not saying it is bad to not FF your dog, all I am saying is that knowledge/experience provides options.
    I tend to agree with you. But your still not understanding what is actually being said. I don't have the time to explain it because my puter won't give me the time before booting me off,, may be someone else can help you understand the concept. Also behaviorally speaking ,,dogs are not people and share few behavioral similarities,, because of how our brain was designed,,,,or at lest are not on the same plane. You may get the opposite affect on a human if you used negative reinforcement on them. Dog don't have revenge or spite in their behavioral make up.

    Pete
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

  5. #25
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrrichar View Post

    Personally, like another post, the difference between work and play was cemented long before FF. My dogs have no problem identifying the difference whether in the yard or the field.
    I agree with you in terms of dogs identifying context, as will the majority of the experienced trainers here.

    There is an issue with what you said though in the context of FF.

    FF is seen by most trainers (I don't necessarily agree but that's another discussion) as the point in the learning process where what has been nothing but pure fun becomes an actual job to the dog.

    There is also a prevailing viewpoint that I imagine you'll agree with that says "if you let the dog practice incorrect behaviors, you will degrade your work in trying to reinforce the correct ones."

    So, when you hear about dogs being kenneled other than to do FF and no marks being thrown, there is the attitude issue (make it the highlight of the day) that Julie mentioned but beyond that, there are a couple of other important points.

    I'm not sure I have all of them right but with the exposure I have had I think some of them would be:

    1. Make FF the highlight of the day (for attitude purposes)
    2. Make the dog understand that he's going to WORK when he comes off the truck, not play time
    3. Avoid the dog practicing incorrect behaviors (dropping birds)

    You have to keep context in mind, especially with pro trained dogs. The prevailing viewpoint is that those dogs derive their fun from their job, not from running around the house chasing the cat. I'm sure most are given some free "pack" time but by and large their relaxation and rest comes to them in their kennel and on the truck between training sessions. Their fun comes from running marks and blinds with the trainer.

    Granted there will be as many opinions and methods of managing dogs as there are stars in the sky, but if you look at a big professional training organization they really don't have time to sit around and watch dogs play in the airing yard. It's get out, air, get on the truck, let's go to work (and have some FUN). If you look at the proportion of time spent between kennel, truck, training and play, you will probably find that what most of us would call "play" is a fairly small percentage of the equation. A pro just doesn't have hours a day to let them run wild and probably doesn't want that anyway, since he's trying to create working animals.

    Some make this transition in a more gradual manner than others, but you have to recognize that it is the dog's transition from a puppy to an actual working dog (in the opinion of a lot of people).
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 04-10-2014 at 09:22 AM.
    Darrin Greene

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I agree with you in terms of dogs identifying context, as will the majority of the experienced trainers here.

    There is an issue with what you said though in the context of FF.

    FF is seen by most trainers (I don't necessarily agree but that's another discussion) as the point in the learning process where what has been nothing but pure fun becomes an actual job to the dog.

    There is also a prevailing viewpoint that I imagine you'll agree with that says "if you let the dog practice incorrect behaviors, you will degrade your work in trying to reinforce the correct ones."

    So, when you hear about dogs being kenneled other than to do FF and no marks being thrown, there is the attitude issue (make it the highlight of the day) that Julie mentioned but beyond that, there are a couple of other important points.

    I'm not sure I have all of them right but with the exposure I have had I think some of them would be:

    1. Make FF the highlight of the day (for attitude purposes)
    2. Make the dog understand that he's going to WORK when he comes off the truck, not play time
    3. Avoid the dog practicing incorrect behaviors (dropping birds)

    You have to keep context in mind, especially with pro trained dogs. The prevailing viewpoint is that those dogs derive their fun from their job, not from running around the house chasing the cat. I'm sure most are given some free "pack" time but by and large their relaxation and rest comes to them in their kennel and on the truck between training sessions. Their fun comes from running marks and blinds with the trainer.

    Granted there will be as many opinions and methods of managing dogs as there are stars in the sky, but if you look at a big professional training organization they really don't have time to sit around and watch dogs play in the airing yard. It's get out, air, get on the truck, let's go to work (and have some FUN). If you look at the proportion of time spent between kennel, truck, training and play, you will probably find that what most of us would call "play" is a fairly small percentage of the equation. A pro just doesn't have hours a day to let them run wild and probably doesn't want that anyway, since he's trying to create working animals.

    Some make this transition in a more gradual manner than others, but you have to recognize that it is the dog's transition from a puppy to an actual working dog (in the opinion of a lot of people).
    Thank you for the great explanation. I think we are more in agreement then disagreement. I think the main difference is do you want a working dog as a primary function of the dog or a companion. I would imagine pro trainers who make a living from their reputations and records are invested in choice 1 whereas most individuals who consider their dog part of their family are interested in choice 2. I think there is a trade off to each one and this is a representation of that. I don't think for one second that my dogs have as much drive and focus as many that sit on the back of a pro truck. However, I also don't think that those same dogs have the bond/relationship with the trainer as mine do with me. It is a trade-off.

    As always, I am sure there are exceptions to the rule. If the OP has a dog that's primary function is as a companion (I could be wrong in this) I think to use the same methods that pro trainers whose primary function is working could pose some serious pitfalls.

  7. #27
    Senior Member jrrichar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ... Also behaviorally speaking ,,dogs are not people and share few behavioral similarities,, because of how our brain was designed,,,,or at lest are not on the same plane. You may get the opposite affect on a human if you used negative reinforcement on them. Dog don't have revenge or spite in their behavioral make up.

    Pete

    Pete: 1st Thanks for your comments and your experience.

    2nd -if you are interested:

    As far as the above statement, dogs are much more similar to humans then they are dissimilar (the behavioral similarities between dogs and young children is an example). Much of my research is done in animals, since ethically I cannot do my experimental paradigms in humans (IRB would never approve it). You are correct in that dogs behavioral outputs can, in many ways, be very different then humans, since we are able to simply exhibit much more complex emotional responses, cognition, and reasoning. As far as brain design, much of the design is highly conserved (the same) along the entire mammalian lineage. That is what allows researchers like myself to justify the use of animals to better understand the brain's platform/circuit to which these thought processes exist.

    It is a much shorter leap from animal to human then often times we care to admit!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Some make this transition in a more gradual manner than others, but you have to recognize that it is the dog's transition from a puppy to an actual working dog (in the opinion of a lot of people).
    I like this quote "Play time is done, It's time to work" , Force fetch is a critical time when a pup learns what work actually is, it's when they begin to take on responsibility for retrieving, something that's only been play before. On a Pro truck, they'll do nothing but get through this process. With an Amateur, they have distinct times to work and others times to be a companion, a time period of isolation in a kennel etc. can aid with the transition (of knowing when they can play and when they must work). However I've never seen a benefit of incorporating retrieves while your working through forcing. I can only see it confusing a dog and creating problems to work through.Your pretty much going contrary to your training whenever you let a dog have a choice in fetching, and you can end up being extremely unfair if you try to enforce a command that a dog doesn't thoroughly know. A dog can be a companion without retrieving, he can do a whole bunch of other things that won't effect the forcing process. Now once I have the tools in place to easily and fairly enforce the fetch, without getting into a battle, fun bumpers and retrieves come back into equation. Until then the only retrieving a pup will do is picking things up off the table.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Todd Caswell's Avatar
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    Iv'e never done the crate or Kennel and only work during FF, I just do a session in the morning and one in the evening, the puppys get crated during the day when at work anyway, and I continue to do marks as well if time permits, never had a problem with the end result and all have had pretty good attitudes during and after..

  10. #30
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    As far as the above statement, dogs are much more similar to humans then they are dissimilar (the behavioral similarities between dogs and young children is an example). Much of my research is done in animals, since ethically I cannot do my experimental paradigms in humans (IRB would never approve it). You are correct in that dogs behavioral outputs can, in many ways, be very different then humans, since we are able to simply exhibit much more complex emotional responses, cognition, and reasoning. As far as brain design, much of the design is highly conserved (the same) along the entire mammalian lineage. That is what allows researchers like myself to justify the use of animals to better understand the brain's platform/circuit to which these thought processes exist.
    I would agree if your examining and comparing using scientific means which I believe is only three dimentional , one would find them highly conserved. But there are things not considered when examining these things scientifically,,,of which is taboo to speak of on the dog portion of rtf. The function and operation of the human brain has unique properties.. and I'll leave it at that.
    John 5 :30
    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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