I've done FF myself on my last three dogs and it has gone fairly easy with all of them and the results have been satisfactory. My current pup has been a bit more challenging. He does not like the ear pinch and it was a wrestling match with this one. Once he figured out he could turn it off by fetching it then became a wrestling match to keep him from fetching before I could even get my hand behind the collar. His reluctance to Hold has also disappeared. We have been going through FF for about a week and he is eagerly fetching from hand or off the ground. I recently read in an online discussion a statement by a pro trainer that many dogs got through FF without really being properly forced. From those of you with a lot more experience, how much FF is enough? If my dog is eagerly fetching anything I ask him to and his attitude on responding to me has really improved, i.e. he is now holding and paying attention when I tell him to do something, are we done with FF and ready to move on? What's you thoughts on this?
What have your goals been on not only this dog, but those previous? A reliable hold & hand delivery? A reliable and predictable fetch on command - even when the dog is very distracted? If you don't have that, I don't believe you have sufficiently met goals I consider adequate for a FF'd dog.
If my dog is eagerly fetching anything I ask him to and his attitude on responding to me has really improved, i.e. he is now holding and paying attention when I tell him to do something, are we done with FF and ready to move on? What's you thoughts on this?
What have your goals been on not only this dog, but those previous? A reliable hold & hand delivery? A reliable and predictable fetch on command - even when the dog is very distracted? If you don't have that, I don't believe you have sufficiently met goals I consider adequate for a FF'd dog.
Evan, Yes to both hold and fetch. But I also thought the whole process of going through FF was to transition from all positive reinforcement to beginning to teach the dog how to deal with pressure and learn that it can be turned off by complying with the command quickly. With all the dogs I have Force Fetched I went on to walking fetch, and then on to force to pile and then into collar conditioning. The end result for me is a dog that can learn from both positive reinforcement and attrition but also knows how to respond quickly and positively in all situations to commands given. FF is not an end in itself but sets the stage for further training and establishes standards of performance expected by the trainer. Maybe I should have phrased my question more along the lines of "How long do you do the ear-pinch drills once the dog is responding appropriately on a consistent basis to the fetch command?"
Darrin, thanks for the article it was a good one. Gave me something to think about.
I think you will find out how well you did when you start walking fetch. I have had to go back a few times after I thought I had got thru to the dog. If you didn't do it well enough it will show up sooner or later.
I think you've made a good point here. The distinction I would make is that Walking Fetch is a standard component of the full FF system. As you go from step to step a trainer often finds holes in the previous step or steps. Each one should be reliable and predictable.
I'm saying that each phase of the process should be trained to a stable and predictable state, rather than just looking okay and jumping to the next step. Obviously no one step is all there is. It's the sum of its parts.
Evan
Not sure if its right or wrong but I first teach a dog to calmly hold whatever object it may be positively and then when it has an understanding of what it is I want do I put a force fetch on the dog. Seems to have always worked for me whether it was hunting or my ScH dogs. Everything seems to be a little clearer
Hey Hambone-
Haven't read any other posts since you've posted.
What the pro told you is spot on. You see....things go what you consider "great" as long as the dog doesn't understand pressure!
In other words-
You are PRESSURE CONDITIONING your dawg. That means your dog needs to experience pressure beyond just "figuring out how to turn it off"...Just because you get a response from the dog that's prior to applied pressure doesn't mean that the dog is Pressure Conditioned.All your dog is doing is avoiding pressure by reacting before a command is given..like when you get your hand up there on the dogs' ear.
FETCH is a command! NOT something the dog does before commanded to.
Sounds like you may need to keep your dog in a more positive frame of mind.
Don't try to move forward with this faster than the dog is understanding it. (Pressure).
by
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