The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 7 of 14 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 133

Thread: Letter of suggestions concerning Limited Entries.

  1. #61
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Souf Joisy
    Posts
    2,758

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TroyFeeken View Post
    Darrin,
    Sure, a 50/50 is nice for a little extra cash, however in HT's, the amateur entry is getting smaller every event we have so the number of people willing to drop $10 or $20 is getting smaller, thus a smaller payout at the end. That then comes in line with the line further below of yours where you identify paying bird boys and have the membership sell stuff. I'm not sure where you're coming from and if your club pays at least minimum wage, but we pay a just a bit more and there's no way a club would break even on that route. Selling merchandise and refreshments is more employees and very very low margin considering the number of people that actually purchase things. I've lined up merchandise in the past for our club and for the small volume that is purchased, the margins are very small, somewheres around a few bucks for a t-shirt. You'd have to sell a lot of t-shirts to pay for a bird boy each hour.

    The AKC fees suggestion is what is paid by the club at the end of the event. Unless the club turned those fee's around in the entry costs, it's just hurting the clubs. I'm having an extremely hard time how Lyle and his group were conscientiously able to keep a strait face when submitting that line in their proposal. There should be no reason for AKC to dictate additional fees or requirements of explanation on why a club can or cannot operate with more than one master flight. Perhaps the AKC would like to chip in to our land fund to provide more grounds.
    The club I call home has adequate help and limited grounds Troy. We make decent money on our test every year by way of raffles, auctions and merchandise sales. I'm sure the raffle item (in fact I know) brings in the most income.

    I don't know what would happen if we paid bird boys or flier guns. We are lucky enough to have a dedicated membership that helps out with that. It's not 5-10 people trying to pull off the whole thing with no helpers.

    I think the proposal as listed would drive business to larger, better equipped clubs and force the smaller ones to pass on the extra entry fee to their participants.

    I think if it were done as a straight pass through it would still be cheaper than travelling further in a lot of cases, although I'm sure every person's situation is different.

    I think what may make my viewpoint a bit odd to people is that I don't see this as a huge amateur/pro problem. I don't see those guys as "offenders" or anything of the sort. Simply put the more dogs we run and the more people that participate the better chance we have of the game being around for our kids and grand-kids.

    It's very easy for me to say, and I recognize that fully, so people can get mad at me if they want, but limiting entries stinks for the long term future of the game. Finding ways to increase capacity is what's in all of our best interest, once we think beyond ourselves being "put out" by a big entry.

    That's the big picture view point (mine anyhow).

    Everyone who is an active worker seems to be tired of "getting crapped on" by a pro bringing 30 dogs to a test... $2,500 right there in entry fees and only one (big) vehicle plus maybe 3 people on the grounds. That would be 25 trucks and 30-40 people if they were all amateurs. Seems like the more big trailer loads you bring in the more efficient you could be and the less beating your grounds are gonna take.

    If you had 2 - 30 dog pro strings it would take a lot less coordination than with one 30 dog string and 30 other individuals running. Get those guys to bring their bird boys and or clients out (I'd bet they would) and you'd have a pretty smooth running test.

    Someone said early.. the pros bring the income and the clubs give them a place to make a living.

    Open minds on this stuff seem hard to come by. Everyone's viewpoint, however much we may disagree , is valuable to the discussion.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 04-22-2014 at 02:48 PM.
    Darrin Greene

  2. #62
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    N. Cackalacky
    Posts
    2,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Duck Hunter View Post
    If more thought had been given when the MNH title (plus all the numbers attached to the title) was asked for and granted, we wouldn't be in this mess.
    Agreed. Lost in all this whining about limits is the fact that the problem lies not with clubs who may limit to keep from having to split MH (or likely when qualification opens for the 2015 in the east, double split) but the MNRC and AKC's MNH title. You can come up with all kinds of rules for opening, lotteries, or bake offs for getting into a HT but the problem is still going to be there until something is done by the MNRC and AKC.

    As much as I am a firm believer that clubs must have the option to limit to whatever number the clubs decide is reasonable for them to carry out, it would almost be interesting to see the limits removed (or alternatively the punitive fees for not having limits suggested by these folks). I think you would then force a lot of clubs to drop MNRC membership, putting the MNHT qualification onus on fewer clubs, leading to more dogs going to those tests, leading to more dropping--a doggie death spiral.

  3. #63
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3,126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dexdoolittle View Post
    Why not require a pro to bring a bird boy for every 10 dogs he enters or runs??
    Great suggestion.
    The post following yours pooh poohed it and said "it ain;t about bird boys". He then went on to list all the other behind the scene organizing headaches that go into putting on these events.

    Well correct me if I'm wrong but one of those biggest headaches is arranging, organizing, teaching, supervising and riding herd on your hired inexperienced bird boys.
    I have met with a group of pimple faced kids on a Thursday evening before a trial and had to {Attemp to} teach them about what it takes to do the job. I have had a 16 yr old girl recoil with disgust and ask "you want me to touch that". This was in reference to a freshly killed fluffy warm mallard. Then you want to ask this same 16 yr old girl to throw that bird at the correct time with the correct arc and distance and hit a precise landing area with that same bird in the the final series on Sunday after that now stinky bird has been wet and been baking in the sun & had flies shitting on it for two days?

    Ask yourself this. If you have been campaigning your dog for years and spent countless time and resources in that quest and that throw in the 4th series could get you your title or a trip to the Nationals, would you rather have an experienced professional bird thrower tossing that bird or that 16 yr old girl who never saw a duck until two days ago and is disgusted to touch it and more interested in her texting than where & when that bird lands?

    If the pros brought their own BB's it would eliminate much of this headache. Additionally if 10 pro's brought bird boys that would save $3000 {10 BB's X 10 Hrs X 3 days X $10 hr} That savings could result in a $10 reduction in entry fees for a 300 dog event or go towards keeping a struggling club viable, and able to buy more needed equipment, grounds etc.
    I understand that the pro's must run many dogs and therefore don't have time to help However, The pro's are the ones making a living off of this sport and putting a huge stress on the unpaid volunteers & clubs with their large entries. Why shouldn't they be required to help staff their golden goose? It would be real easy {and More fair} to pass the cost on to their clients in handling fees IMHO.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Mohawk Valley
    Posts
    8,642

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
    It ain't about the bird boys- that is a solvable issue. The issue is about available grounds, it's about a very few folks that put in long hours for weeks in advance of the test getting all the necessary arrangements in line, it's about too much crap and not enough appreciation.
    The volunteers that put these things on are about wore out and it's time to change something.
    The unfortunate part of the limited entries is that it is arbitrary- just as likely to shut out a club member as anyone. Maybe the solution is to just allow the clubs to decline entries from those that show up to the party with nothing but an appetite?

    Something has to give regards

    Bubba
    Problem with that is just like many aspects of the MN, its all about popularity not most qualified or deserving. The MN has influenced the weekend hunt test to greatly now. We wouldn't be in this position if it hadn't started putting pressure on local clubs. Those clubs are now bearing the burden and strain of having to have multiple flights to accommodate a national event and so far the MN has shot down every idea that could possibly helped out small clubs. If 700 dogs qualify for the MN, assuming that each of those dogs fail one test in their quest to get 6 thats 4900 entries or 81 flights of MN dogs. With the trend of each club putting on one flight per year, thats 81 clubs needed just for the MN entries. I don't know how many total HT clubs there are but i'm guessing that 81 would be a good percentage. While the MN is creating the demand I don't see them doing anything to help with supply.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
    Black Ice Retrievers
    Marcola OR

    Too many dogs to list (By some Bitch)

    https://www.facebook.com/BlackIceRetrievers
    http://gundog2002.blogspot.com/
    "Helping Hunters Train Their Dogs"

  5. #65
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    iowa
    Posts
    23

    Default

    I've waited a couple of days to post. Never post in anger. Well, It just peeves me the more I think about it. The posters wants more chances to run, which is what we AM's want. If you go back to last year, in the Midwest, The amount of scratches were very lopsided. I looked at about 5 test, a few that filled up in hours or less. Can the writers of this proposal tell me how we can correct the few ( 3 people had 32 out of the 50 scratches in master test) who take up all the spots then scratch. In one test in Minnesota one guy had 9 scratches, in Nebraska another one had 6 scratches. When a test comes open they enter their whole truck in the push of a button, only to scratch a good share later on. This takes away the chances for anyone else. And I know , have a secondary list, but when you scratch a week or two out, not everyone can drop everything reschedule vacation to run. The clubs are the ones doing the work, they are the last ones to be blamed for the problem. Remember, they are giving of THEIR time. Regardless of what the government says I don't owe you a living. I will always vote no for my club going MN. Up to this post I would have still worked if my club choose to go that way. But now, nope. They did have one or two good points, but, 9-12 are just ridiculous. 12 though is in a class of it's own.

  6. #66
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    nowhere Alabama
    Posts
    1,420

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Duck Hunter View Post
    Well I guess that is the problem, there are too many in this game now who are only in it for what they can get for themselves. I've been in the game for 17 years now. Between my husband and my self, we have done or helped with all aspects of the game including at the Master National level.

    What is troubling with the attitude so many have now is that is is causing the game to implode. Our club (Bryan-College Station Retriever Club, so you can look up the past hunt test sizes) is not growing like it once did, and those of us who are quite active are getting tired of being the only ones who will step up to take on any responsibility. So what will happen when we decide we don't want to do it any more?

    We have to start looking at what is good for the sport in the long run, not just at what is good for me right now. If more thought had been given when the MNH title (plus all the numbers attached to the title) was asked for and granted, we wouldn't be in this mess. That was the beginning of the downfall. If the Powers-That-Be had decided to give the title to any dog that passed the Master National one time, because they truly are a Master National Hunter, there would not be the big drive to continue. Those who truly enjoy running their dogs could continue to do so for the love of the sport.
    Thank you for your dedication and service to the sport we love. When I hear complaints about the current system, it revolves around workers unable to enter the test they are working. Like it or not, the reality of the situation is that most will stay home if their dog isn't entered.
    Mark Land

  7. #67
    Senior Member Todd Caswell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Brainerd, MN
    Posts
    1,106

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Problem with that is just like many aspects of the MN, its all about popularity not most qualified or deserving. The MN has influenced the weekend hunt test to greatly now. We wouldn't be in this position if it hadn't started putting pressure on local clubs. Those clubs are now bearing the burden and strain of having to have multiple flights to accommodate a national event and so far the MN has shot down every idea that could possibly helped out small clubs. If 700 dogs qualify for the MN, assuming that each of those dogs fail one test in their quest to get 6 thats 4900 entries or 81 flights of MN dogs. With the trend of each club putting on one flight per year, thats 81 clubs needed just for the MN entries. I don't know how many total HT clubs there are but i'm guessing that 81 would be a good percentage. While the MN is creating the demand I don't see them doing anything to help with supply.


    /Paul
    Untill clubs start to drop out, the MN has no reason to change, and most likely won't untill it starts to hurt there bank account.? Alot of this talk started back in Jan. I wonder how many if any have said enough is enough and dropped?

  8. #68
    Senior Member Karen Klotthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Slidell , LA
    Posts
    752

    Default

    One easy solution is that only the owner can enter the dog. And that only one dog at a time, not 20 dogs in one stroke. No one complains that on Huntsec.com you can only enter one dog per day at a time. All take the time to do it. Most of the pros have their owners enter their own dogs listing the pro as the handler. This way they do not have to wait for the money or enter each dog seperately. So if the owner of all dogs is the only person that can enter their dog it will slow down the entries long enough that others can also have time to get online and enter. No reason why the HTS cannot send out a club email to let the members know that they are about to open for entries and if the member delays well, no ones fault but their own. Most member know well in advance if they plan on running so should not be any delay there.

  9. #69
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    somewhere between Boca Grande and Mims
    Posts
    7,112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Problem with that is just like many aspects of the MN, its all about popularity not most qualified or deserving. The MN has influenced the weekend hunt test to greatly now. We wouldn't be in this position if it hadn't started putting pressure on local clubs. Those clubs are now bearing the burden and strain of having to have multiple flights to accommodate a national event and so far the MN has shot down every idea that could possibly helped out small clubs. If 700 dogs qualify for the MN, assuming that each of those dogs fail one test in their quest to get 6 thats 4900 entries or 81 flights of MN dogs. With the trend of each club putting on one flight per year, thats 81 clubs needed just for the MN entries. I don't know how many total HT clubs there are but i'm guessing that 81 would be a good percentage. While the MN is creating the demand I don't see them doing anything to help with supply.

    /Paul
    That at assumes a 1:1 pass ratio and does not account for test run that a dog fails to qualify for.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  10. #70
    Senior Member FOM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Falcon, CO
    Posts
    9,115

    Default

    What is the qualification period for the MN?
    "You can't eat a pig whole, but you can eat a whole pig." - Joe S.

    Proudly Owned By:
    MHR HR Flash Of Mischief SH CD CGC - Flash (10/15/98 - 10/8/12)
    Lightning Fast Quack Attacker*** - Bullet
    Gotta Heart Of A Warrior - Ranger (12/26/07 - 8/10/2010)
    SML's Gettin' Sexy With It*** - Tango
    FOM's Raising a Ruckus in the Rockies - Riot

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •