The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 10 of 14 FirstFirst ... 89101112 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 100 of 133

Thread: Letter of suggestions concerning Limited Entries.

  1. #91
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NW WI
    Posts
    3,671

    Default

    Actually, I think the regulations do address it, Chapter 3, Section 21:
    Section 21. Call Backs. At the end of the first
    series in each category (Junior, Senior and Master), and
    every series thereafter, the Judges will call back all dogs
    which they wish to evaluate further, and will score them
    in additional hunting situations until the testing category
    has been concluded.
    Whenever a dog is graded “0” by two judges on the
    same ability, or whenever it is evident that a dog can not
    receive a Qualifying score, it shall not be called back to
    run in subsequent series.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

  2. #92
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TroyFeeken View Post
    I think you're missing some of the things commented on here regarding this possible idea. The only way this would fly would be in probably the JH stake. If a dog breaks, well, that's the handlers fault for not hanging on as the dogs can be restrained. If the dog isn't able to find the bird, well, the test is about marking and for the most part, that's it. If a dog can pick up a couple singles, well they better get back to training. A JH test is just a step more difficult than picking up tennis balls in the back yard. You aim your dog, they don't need to be steady and they just have to pick up the bird and deliver it to hand. If the rules would change to allow dogs and handlers to keep playing and not have the dealing with being dismissed/dropped, it seems like you're now treading on the levels of entitlement which isn't the game we play. Just because you paid doesn't mean you get to keep running if your dog can even pick up the birds.

    Troy,
    The example of a dog breaking and being DQ was one example. How about a handler that accidentally talks to his dog after he calls for the bird? Or a dog that switches on a mark bc of a strong crosswind? All reasons for you to be DQ immediately. At the master level I can understand being out. I have been there. It sucks, but you know your running at a level that demands no errors. The junior level and senior level are not the big leagues. There is a reason that your not graded as strictly in those tests, as dogs at the master level. Handlers and dogs are still learning. And JH/SH also aren't usually running flights of 60 dogs. Usually it's more like 15 or 20. Dogs that are handling reasonably should be allowed to run the rest of the weekend. Hell, stick them at the back of the pack. That way bad weather, darkness, etc doesn't effect anyone who is still being judged. But give the younger kids and newer handlers a chance to get involved in the sport and enjoy it before you start telling them they need to either train harder or not bother showing up on the weekend.
    Last edited by Quacktastic; 04-23-2014 at 09:47 AM.

  3. #93
    Senior Member TroyFeeken's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Fargo, ND
    Posts
    1,119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacktastic View Post
    Troy,
    The example of a dog breaking and being DQ was one example. How about a handler that talks to his dog after he calls for the bird? Or a dog that switches? All reasons for you to be DQ immediately. At the master level I can understand being out. The junior level and senior level are not the big leagues. There is a reason that your not graded as strictly in those tests, as at the master level. Handlers and dogs are still learning. And they also aren't usually running flights of 60 dogs. Usually it's more like 15 or 20. Dogs that are handling reasonably should be allowed to run the rest of the weekend. Hell, stick them at the back of the pack. That way bad weather, darkness, etc doesn't effect anyone who is still being judged. But give the younger kids and newer handlers a chance to get involved in the sport and enjoy it before you start telling them they need to either train harder or not bother showing up on the weekend.
    In JH, a dog should never switch because they only seen one bird go down and sent on that retrieve. If the dog attempts to switch with that, it's either very poor marking set up or the dog just isn't ready for that level of event. In SH if a dog attempts to switch, the dog needs to handle in that level so the handler should whistle sit the dog and handle back to the bird. Again, not being ready for the level of testing entered. If a dog isn't capable of even attempting to do the work, then the lesson should be taught to the handler, which most all minor stake judges will provide for insight and assistance. If a dog is just out of control and disturbing a lot of ground, another reason for failing, that eats up a ton of time. Allowing a dog to commit major failures that isn't prepared to run at that level is better off not being allow to commit more failures for the betterment of their future training.
    Cody's Gunslingin' Cosmonaut MH QAA (Shooter)

  4. #94
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Look at the bigger idea Troy...your nit picking my examples and not focusing on the main point.

    This whole thing has turned into a bitch and moan session. Im glad some guys stepped up and made recommendations to try and help the process. Beyond that...this thread is now just everyone getting on their soap box about things they don't like. Me included.
    Last edited by Quacktastic; 04-23-2014 at 10:27 AM.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Karen Klotthor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Slidell , LA
    Posts
    835

    Default

    Actually, if you are out in the first series, you can wait around and run last after all dogs still in run if time allows. The judges do not have to judge you but if there is time, you can ask to run. I have done that on more than one occasison as a judge for a newbie. And if I had the time I watched and helped. By the time you get to Senior, I would think most handlers would not what to reward the dog for messing up. If the handler messed up than I might consider it but with no flyer. Of course this is off the subject of this thread.
    I still believe if you can only enter one dog at a time it will slow things down so more people can enter.

  6. #96

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacktastic View Post
    Look at the bigger idea Troy...your nit picking my examples and not focusing on the main point.

    This whole thing has turned into a bitch and moan session. Im glad some guys stepped up and made recommendations to try and help the process. Beyond that...this thread is now just everyone getting on their soap box about things they don't like. Me included.
    Quacktastic, at risk of dragging this thread even further off topic, I can see your point. Is it beneficial to the dog to continue running after it has been DQ’d? Rarely. But JR/Started is more about the handler than the dog in most cases and it can absolutely be beneficial to the handler. It’s easy to say "go home and train, come back when your dog is ready". But it’s also easy to forget that for lots of people just starting out, tests are the only training they have.

    I remember vividly a time when I didn’t know anybody, and knew even less about training. The first time my big fluffy, bandana wearing golden ever saw a real bird was at a Coastal Empire test. I didn’t have birds and had no idea where to get them. Lois McCracken was one of my judges and after he wouldn’t pick up the bird on land she let us borrow one and encouraged us to try again in the afternoon. He wouldn’t get in the water that afternoon so we’ll never know if he would have picked up the bird or not. The dog failed, but I went home with a new friend, a new plan and a couple of birds to train with.

    We used those birds until they fell apart and tried again at North GA. I know David McCracken was one of the judges; the other was a lady but I don’t recall who. We didn’t get a pass but we learned the value of training around decoys and different cover and we met lots of people in the gallery. We got to watch a young girl that couldn’t have been 9-10 run her first test. I’ve since watched that young girl grow into a fine young trainer. The dog failed, but for the handler it was a success.

    We tried again at Midlands. Given our track record, we only signed up for Saturday. We ran under Russell Scott and David McCracken that weekend. I'm sure David dreaded to see us come to the line by then but he still encouraged us. By this point he was bringing the bird back but delivery (even to the area) was questionable. Still no ribbon, but we were closer and we met more people and picked up more training tips. We decided come back on Sunday and give it another try. We ended up getting our first pass that day (one of the reasons as a hunt secretary you’ll rarely hear me complain about walk-ups). But more importantly we ended up joining the club. In the years since I’ve loaded wingers, marshaled, held office, taken pictures, been hunt secretary, packed lunches, conducted raffles, you name it. We never would have made it without the encouragement of all of those people. Continuing to run a dog that wasn’t ready to run wasn’t good for the dog at all … it took years to undo the damage done, but for the handler (and the club) it was invaluable.
    Last edited by Elaine Mitchell; 04-23-2014 at 11:58 AM.

    SHR Turtlecreek's This 'Ol Cowboy - Tucker
    HRCH Oak Point's Traveling Man - Mason

  7. #97
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Elaine Mitchell View Post
    Quacktastic, at risk of dragging this thread even further off topic, I can see your point. Is it beneficial to the dog to continue running after it has been DQ’d? Rarely. But JR/Started is more about the handler than the dog in most cases and it can absolutely be beneficial to the handler. It’s easy to say "go home and train, come back when your dog is ready". But it’s also easy to forget that for lots of people just starting out, tests are the only training they have.

    I remember vividly a time when I didn’t know anybody, and knew even less about training. The first time my big fluffy, bandana wearing golden ever saw a real bird was at a Coastal Empire test. I didn’t have birds and had no idea where to get them. Lois McCracken was one of my judges and after he wouldn’t pick up the bird on land she let us borrow and encouraged us to try again in the afternoon. He wouldn’t get in the water that afternoon so we’ll never know if he would have picked up the bird or not. The dog failed, but I went home with a new friend, a new plan and a couple of birds to train with.

    We used those birds until they fell apart and tried again at North GA. I know David McCracken was one of the judges; the other was a lady but I don’t recall who. We didn’t get a pass but we learned the value of training around decoys and different cover and we met lots of people in the gallery. We got to watch a young girl that couldn’t have been 9-10 run her first test. I’ve since watched that young girl grow into a fine young trainer. The dog failed, but for the handler it was a success.

    We tried again at Midlands. Given our track record, we only signed up for Saturday. We ran under Russell Scott and David McCracken that weekend. I'm sure David dreaded to see us come to the line by then but he still encouraged us. By this point he was bringing the bird back but delivery (even to the area) was questionable. Still no ribbon, but we were closer and we met more people and picked up more training tips. We decided come back on Sunday and give it another try. We ended up getting our first pass that day (one of the reasons as a hunt secretary you’ll rarely hear me complain about walk-ups). But more importantly we ended up joining the club. In the years since I’ve loaded wingers, marshaled, held office, taken pictures, been hunt secretary, packed lunches, conducted raffles, you name it. We never would have made it without the encouragement of all of those people. Continuing to run a dog that wasn’t ready to run wasn’t good for the dog at all … it took years to undo the damage done, but for the handler (and the club) it was invaluable.

    Bingo! And a great story too! Thanks for sharing the experience Elaine.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Todd Caswell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Brainerd, MN
    Posts
    1,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacktastic View Post
    Todd,
    The whole idea of the hunt test has been lost then. It isn't a competition for money, it's not a fight to the death. It's an opportunity to come run your dog and see if they can match up to a standard. It's supposed to also be a chance to learn and have fun also. What if football games ended as soon as someone jumped off sides? You wouldn't see very many people going to games anymore.

    A lot of newer dog owners are intimidated by the fact that they may get sent packing if they make a mistake. Running your first hunt test is nerve racking and expensive enough...I think the thought of getting sent home before a dog can even pickup a bird is ridiculous. HRC allows you to run all test in a given weekend, even if the dog won't be scored bc of a DQ. I think the AKC is missing the boat on bringing new blood to the sport, in having this rule. And that new blood is often what is needed to help grow the membership of clubs. It also grows their general budget, their pool of volunteers to help host events, training ground opportunities, etc.
    Maybe to go along with the orange pass ribbons we could give out black participation ribbons for those that got dropped but wanted to hang around and run there dog, that way nobodys feelings get hurt. I'm well aware that HRC does this and I don't agree with it there either why would I want to waste the judges and the workers time by running a dog out of contention. Life is full of failures, the dog games are no different the sooner you learn it the better off you and your dog will be..

  9. #99
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Caswell View Post
    Maybe to go along with the orange pass ribbons we could give out black participation ribbons for those that got dropped but wanted to hang around and run there dog, that way nobodys feelings get hurt. I'm well aware that HRC does this and I don't agree with it there either why would I want to waste the judges and the workers time by running a dog out of contention. Life is full of failures, the dog games are no different the sooner you learn it the better off you and your dog will be..

    I don't have a problem with my dog not getting called back or a DQ. He also runs at the master level and qualified for California this year. So he and I aren't in the same category as a young kid running his 15 month old lab in a junior series event. How about we start issuing a $100 fine to people when their dogs don't get called back? Teach them another lesson about life. "Thanks for taking up spots by entering your stupid untrained mutt and wasting our time! Here is a fine for $100. Now don't come back until you get that flea bag trained right." How's that sound?

    I also like the idea of the participation ribbons. Maybe we can have everyone throw dog crap at them when they go up to accept the participation ribbon. That way we can shame them from ever attempting to run their dog again, if it's not ready to participate at that level! You just solved half the worlds problems. People won't dare sign up for tests unless their dog can win a national field trail championship, and thus opening up plenty of spots for all the hardcore dog handlers like yourself.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Bubba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    S.W. Washington
    Posts
    3,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Quacktastic View Post
    I don't have a problem with my dog not getting called back or a DQ. He also runs at the master level and qualified for California this year. So he and I aren't in the same category as a young kid running his 15 month old lab in a junior series event. How about we start issuing a $100 fine to people when their dogs don't get called back? Teach them another lesson about life. "Thanks for taking up spots by entering your stupid untrained mutt and wasting our time! Here is a fine for $100. Now don't come back until you get that flea bag trained right." How's that sound?

    I also like the idea of the participation ribbons. Maybe we can have everyone throw dog crap at them when they go up to accept the participation ribbon. That way we can shame them from ever attempting to run their dog again, if it's not ready to participate at that level! You just solved half the worlds problems. People won't dare sign up for tests unless their dog can win a national field trail championship, and thus opening up plenty of spots for all the hardcore dog handlers like yourself.
    Ummmmm....................

    Any chance I could get a key to your medicine cabinet?

    Just wondering regards

    Bubba
    There are three classes of people: those who see...those who see when shown...and those who do not see. - Leonardo da Vinci

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •