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Thread: Very Good Approach to "Creeping"

  1. #21
    Senior Member Karen Klotthor's Avatar
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    I tried the 2 prong approach. Neve made a difference. I would take her off site before running, remind her what sit means but once at the test, it was on. She would forget what I just did. This was only on honor. She would smoke the test, not moving one the line as working dog, but just too much to sit on honor. The back step healing helped me.

  2. #22
    Senior Member BJGatley's Avatar
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    It also helps having your dog honor in training. Provided the folks don't mind you honoring your dog while it is their turn. Do as many as is allow from fellow handlers and do what you can to show.

  3. #23
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    Your actually making the dog heel backwards with birds in the air. They don't maintain their position when you're teaching this. Maintaining their position is the ultimate goal however. As far as collar pressure, my dog needs a high 2 on a TT pro 500 for this. He gets his corrections on a high 4.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I can't get inside Pete's head on this but having spoken with him a bunch of times I get what he's doing pretty well.

    If I could add some detail (magazine articles can't be war and peace) to a great article, I teach these skills to a wide variety of completely inexperienced handlers and dogs in my obedience practice.

    One tip on getting the dog to move "Straight" back is to place the dog between yourself and a wall or fence line while also using a "suit case" leash (as was suggested) keep the back end in alignment.

    I also use a different verbal cue "back up" as opposed to "heel" when going straight back, simply because I like to parse things out a bit more for the dog. Heel can mean a lot of things in most trainer's language. Get in position, pivot backward, etc... I find that inexperienced handlers with totally green dogs have a better chance if I spell things out more clearly for them.

    I haven't talked to Pete in a while but I would imagine in the suggested process heel is meant to mean "maintain your position". I'm surely not arguing that logic. Pete has helped me numerous times with a wide variety of challenging problems, just by speaking to me on the phone. I just like to give the dog separate cues for each action so...

    When my dog comes back in to me I either say "left" or "right" to indicate what side I want him/her on... "back up" to back straight up, "heel" to mean pivot with me backward (push) and "here" to pivot with me forward (pull).

    Also, just to clarify for people who use the e-collar in a more "corrective" type manner, when the term "low level stimulation" is used here I believe (with 99% certainty) that Pete is referring to a level of stim that produces a change in the dog's behavior but with very little, if any physical or vocal reaction from the dog. You want to reinforce the behavior but preserve the dog's drive in this process, so if the ears go down and the dog vocalizes and goes flat on you, the stim level was probably too high.

    The idea is to promote and "Recondition" an appropriate response while the dog is in a high state of drive. If you hit the collar too hard and knock them out of that state of mind, you lose the effect.

    As one really great dog man once told me "Teach her to think in that state of mind". Meaning make the right decisions when she was extremely excited.

  4. #24
    Senior Member BJGatley's Avatar
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    And to add... When you get two dogs in competition for a bird or bumper, your job is to make sure whose dog gets what.
    My penny worth.

  5. #25

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    thanks so much for this post I have been fighting the breaking problem.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Todd Caswell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJGatley View Post
    It also helps having your dog honor in training. Provided the folks don't mind you honoring your dog while it is their turn. Do as many as is allow from fellow handlers and do what you can to show.
    Agree every chance you have, cold honors as well, I feel as soon as they are steady they should be doing it, started honoring last week with a 10 monthe old, first couple times he flinched when the working dog was sent but hasn't budged since..

  7. #27
    Senior Member Todd Caswell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    I have the flip side of this one. A high drive dog that could keep it together on the marks but was 2-2 in SH - 2-2 in breaking on honor. We have not run in a test since last November. We did run test dog a couple weeks ago and survived two honors and a walkup flyer, so maybe we are making some progress.

    In conjunction with my pro, I took a two-pronged approach to the problem. First, I went back and really reinforced the fact that he is not to leave the line, even if I call his name or say back, unless my hand is down, and the consequences for doing so are dire. Obviously I will never put my hand down on honor, so hopefully that helps.

    My dog is two-sided, so what I have also done is started pretty much working him off the left side. This means that we honor on the right side. The message of course being that you never get to go from the right side, so just cool your engines there big fella. I also turn sideways into him, because I never send him like that either. This dog is going to break every once in a while, but obviously you'd like it to be the rare exception rather than the rule. We will see this fall when we ramp up enough courage to run again.

    Another thing that helps is to heed Mr. Rorem's advice that it all starts on the way to and in the holding blind. If you get control of it there, it will help out everywhere else. I wish I would have really understood what he meant about 2 years ago. Along with what "sit means sit" really means.
    I agree with the standing sideways, it's different than when you are the working dog, my view on this is they need to know there done and it's there turn to sit and watch, I don't stand right over them either I try to stand a few feet away, they have never been sent with me standing there in there life. I don't agree with sitting the dog down and cueing "mark" when honoring because he may be more steady when working, I think your conveying the wrong message and lieing to the dog, it won't take very many times and the dog will have your game figured out. Similar to a dog that is good in training but will stick on the 3rd. bird at a test, common approach would be to throw a few Quads in training befor a test, and on test day when the dog comes back with the third bird you line him up on the 4th. bird that isn't there and cue him on mark, he'll probably spit the bird the first couple times you fool him but it won't last forever. I believe at least with young dogs that have a problem honoring , they just don't know the difference yet, when they finally get it you'll know, it's almost like letting the air out of a balloon when you hit the honor mat.. The more repititions the better..

  8. #28
    Senior Member Randy Bohn's Avatar
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    CREEPING AND BREAKING.........is the end product you allow in training....you don't need to write a 3 page story on the issue, bottom line you have low standards and that's what you allowed to happen...Randy
    CHRIS ATKINSON...PLEASE don't QUIT CHANGING MY PROFILE PAGE!!

    "And if you have a golden, bring TWO towels!"

  9. #29
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Allen View Post
    Your actually making the dog heel backwards with birds in the air. They don't maintain their position when you're teaching this. Maintaining their position is the ultimate goal however. As far as collar pressure, my dog needs a high 2 on a TT pro 500 for this. He gets his corrections on a high 4.
    That's not the objective and when marking counts (outside the drill), the dog doesn't move.

    In fact, they don't do it in training either. They simply come to expect that when they see bird thrown, they will have to back up first, before being released.

    It's called counter conditioning. Teaching the dog to do something incompatible with the behavior you're trying to eradicate.

    To Randy's point... It's an approach that works. It's not the only approach that works.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 04-26-2014 at 06:18 AM.
    Darrin Greene

  10. #30
    Senior Member afdahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Part II

    Thanks to Mr Butch Goodwin of Northern Flight Retrievers"
    Did you get his permission to republish his article?

    Amy Dahl

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