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Very Good Approach to "Creeping"

16K views 46 replies 24 participants last post by  Lonnie Spann 
#1 ·
A very good friend sent me this!

Thanks Janie!!!!

I hope it helps someone.


Force or Correction?
Reconditioning the dog's mind


written by Butch Goodwin
of

Northern Flight Retrievers

I introduced you to my friend and fellow retriever trainer, Pete Eromenok, in the April/May 2010 issue of The Retriever Journal in an article entitled, "Defusing Bird-Possessive Aggression." While I was talking to Pete about his work - he works with all breeds of dogs displaying various kinds of aggression - he answered a phone call and spent considerable time explaining to one of his clients about the differences between correcting a dog's responses and reconditioning a dog's mind to perform correctly. Later, in a conversation with a successful long-time field trialer - who had never given much thought to the differences between force and correction so that the problem being corrected was less likely to show up again in a field trial - Pete suggested this topic would be a good one for a column.

Over the years, I have almost always heard dog. trainers use the words "force" and "correction" interchangeably. From what I overheard from Pete's conversation, his rather simple explanation of the differences and how reconditioning is accomplished interested me to the point that I sat down with Pete again to have him explain "reconditioning" so that I could pass it along.

"It doesn't matter if you use the terms 'force' and 'correction' interchangeably until you try to explain how to recondition a dog back to running tests or trials after the dog has developed behaviors that prevent it from advancing," Pete said. "For example, we know there are dogs that have not received the benefits of a program rooted in force that do a very reliable job at tests. But there are talented dogs playing the dog games that will not be able to succeed unless a systematic regimen of force has reconditioned them to be reliable performers; eradicating certain behaviors brought on by excitement.



I asked Pete to use the example of steadying a breaking or creeping dog to explain what he was telling me - since everyone has or has had a dog that was difficult to steady.

"Breaking or creeping is a common behavior exhibited by excitable, high-drive dogs. The key word here is excitable. The goal is not to stop the dog from breaking, but to recondition the dog to embed a behavior to be sitting in the heel position," said Pete. "It's not don't break the sit, but the mind-set must be changed to I must be next to my handler's side in order to be released to make the retrieve.

There is a huge difference in the state of mind between the two behaviors. We must make it the dog's responsibility to be at our side. Remember, force increases a behavior and a correction diminishes it.

"So the question in peoples' minds might be, 'Why can't we just correct for sit or heel if we are trying to eradicate breaking or creeping? After all, we are trying to stop the dog from breaking or creeping when prey objects are presented.' This is where the problem lies: There are some dogs that this correction simply won't transfer to tests or trials very well. Once excitability destabilizes a dog, corrections can elevate the dog's excitement and drive and possibly bring on other unstable behaviors, such as whining. This makes it difficult to make the dog understand his own responsibilities.

"A common complaint is: He sometimes creeps or breaks at trials or tests, but he doesn't do it in training. Well, because the dog doesn't receive any corrections at trials or tests, the dog learns quite quickly that corrections cannot be administered at a test, so each time a dog breaks or creeps in a trial or test, this behavior is actually being reinforced. You may be able to stop him from breaking at a test by giving him a verbal correction, but you have not taught him that it is his responsibility to remain at your side until released. In a dog's mind this is a huge difference."

To explain what Pete means by the "dog's responsibility," let me use an example most trainers are quite familiar with: force-fetch. Most trainers of hunting breeds agree that force-fetch is the basic way to proof behaviors dealing with picking up, carrying, and not chewing on birds or bumpers. The force-fetch process later expands into a more complex set of retrieving drills. Proofing refers to the commands given to a dog that are obeyed in most contexts, and also to the dog responding properly, on its own, in those same contexts, without the handler speaking a word. This is what is meant by the "dog's responsibility."

Signals are far more meaningful to a dog than words. Dogs are by nature silent communicators. If an action is a dog's responsibility, then often there is no need to give a command for that action. An example might be that when a dog is released for a bird, he runs out, fetches the bird, comes back, returns to heel, sits, drops the bird when the handler touches it, and remains sitting until the handler turns to leave the line ... all of this without the handler uttering a word. These behaviors have been linked together through the step-by-step training process. The dog actually learns to behave this way when certain cues or actions, conscious or unconscious, are exhibited by the handler.


Pete demonstrates the "reverse heel' with the e-collar and prong collar. A bumper out front helps to keep the dog's eyes straight ahead.

"We have conditioned or trained each of these behaviors in the context in which it's applied applied," Pete said. "There is a simple formula for dog training: Timing plus Motivation plus Consistency equals Trained Response. The better the timing of the motivation, the injection ... of the correct motivation for [a specific] circumstance, and a high standard of consistency will determine the level of a trained response. Low levels of force consistently applied over a period of time will produce a dog that seeks to comply with a specific cue. When under the spell of extreme excitability, the conditioned response now overrides.

"Up to this point, I haven't mentioned focus, which is one of the main ingredients of the rehabilitation process. The dog must focus on the
bird being thrown as well as maintaining a peripheral focus on the handler's movements and cues. After all, if it's the dog's responsibility to be next to the handler, the dog learns that he must also keep an eye on the handler. So, how do we take a dog conditioned to breaking at tests and recondition him to seek the heel position and maintain a quiet steady sitting position? It may sound difficult, but it is really quite easy. The problems that often arise are usually because the handler must also recondition himself to respond in a different manner than he has in the past. The dog's part is simple: All he has to do is respond to what the handler is doing. The handler has to retrain his own motor skills to respond correctly to what the dog is doing."

Later on, the reverse heel can be done with only the e-collar,


Pete decided that it might be best to show me while at the same time describing the basics of the steadying process. He starts by teaching a reverse heel on the leash (using a prong collar might help the dog understand moving backward). This begins by taking a small step backward while using the "heel" command. Your objective is to make the dog move straight back without turning his front end or back end, in or out. A rope around the dog's waist might help to control his back end, if necessary. You can flip a bumper out a few feet to the front, and the dog's focus on the bumper will likely help to keep him moving straight back. Pete suggests working on this drill until you can move the dog straight back for a considerable distance - say, 10 feet or so.

When the heeling backward is relatively solid, introduce low-level, continuous stimulation. Move backward, as you hold the button down and command, "Heel." Discontinue the stimulation immediately when the dog gets to the heel position. Do not try to move the entire 10 feet at one time; use your leash to guide him in short increments. As the dog begins to move backward with you, cease the stimulation.

Continue this drill until you can take five or six steps backward and the dog moves straight back with your not having to use the verbal command. You are now starting to teach the dog to seek the heel position even when he is not paying particular attention to you. The goal is to make him pay attention to your silent cues and your movements. He should start seeking the heel position on his own - without verbal commands from you. You should eventually only have to use the low stimulation immediately when the dog does not move with you. Also, it is a good idea to watch for opportunities when he is distracted and not paying attention so you can further reinforce with the low stimulation. Remember: The level of stimulation must be low enough that the dog can think through the process, but not so low that the excitement of a bird can override the "heel" response.

Remember also, up to this point we are teaching this in the yard, so we're not ready for any serious marks yet. However, a good plan is to have a helper introduce flipped bumpers, guns, duck calls, and maybe even shackled birds into the equation to distract the dog so you can reinforce with low stimulation. Before going to the field, your goal should be to throw a happy bumper and move backward while the bumper is still in the air and without uttering any command. The dog should move backward with you, paying attention to you while he is in drive- mode and excitable.
 
#2 ·
Part II

When the dog is reliably moving with you under all circumstances in the yard, it is time to start over again out in the field. Repeat the entire process in the field, starting with hand-thrown bumpers until he is giving you the response that you expect. When this is solid, you can move on to simple single marks and then multiple marks and eventually multiple marks with a flyer being shot from the line. If the dog creeps up on you anytime during the process, then you must condition yourself, at the same time, to step backward using continuous stimulation and hold the button down until the dog is in place. If at times he is unable to maintain focus during a mark, use a slip cord through the prong collar and snap it backward without talking.

"Next, go to your club fun trial or a group training session to imitate a trial and repeat the exact same procedure," Pete said. "And remember - do not say a word. You may find that you might even occasionally have to leave the line and review the earlier steps if the dog is not keeping his eye on you.

"I need to mention again that this and is fairly easy for the dog to learn, but it is important that you [the handler] must also recondition your thinking. It can take quite a while before a handler can successfully get out of his or her rut that has been grooved upon their mind. It will take the handler longer to learn the timing and physical responses than it does the dog! The handler's responses must become second nature. You must always be ready to respond to the dog's actions or intents, and if you can find someone who uses this method, it will help to have them critique you through the entire process. This doesn't mean you will always get the perfect 'heel' when training or at a trial, but it is considerably easier to gain control and have the dog understand his responsibilities. Remember, if you speak or give commands, then you just took the responsibility off of the dog. If you are extremely consistent with this, he will respond at a test or trial. There should be little need to speak to him at a test anyway. If you get nervous and start to repeat, 'Heel, heel, heel,' old conditioning responses could resurface and your training will likely end up falling apart."



If you find yourself in a rut and getting the same unreliable results from doing the same old thing, give this method a try. It's gentle, it's quiet, and it can be done in a public place because no one but you and your dog will likely ever know what you are doing .•

The End
Thanks to Mr Butch Goodwin of Northern Flight Retrievers"
 
#4 ·
#6 ·
This thread is to the point, too many other items on the other. You down at the grand aren't you :)
 
#7 ·
Great article! Thanks for sharing, Stan!

Karen, I'm curious if your situation was like mine. My dog would creep 5' or 6' on honor and even broke on honor, but would not come close to this when she was the working dog.

Here's what I finally figured out:

When we are the working pair at the line, we line up like most do. She knows she must be at heel or re-heel herself from a slight creep before being sent. As said before, she knows it's her responsibility to take steps to be sent.

While honoring, I was acting completely differently. I was standing sideways, whispering to her and generally letting her know we were not the working pair. In her mind, we were out of context, she had no responsibility to follow the normal steps to be steady before the reward. Once I guessed that may be the problem, I started standing as if we were the working pair during honor, even cued her with a soft "sit, mark". It was like a miracle. No more 4-6' creeps and no breaks. We practiced a lot in training with a friend and his dog for her to honor.

Then the ultimate test - she was double staked in a senior and a master in one day. She went through two series of senior, getting 6 birds, then went through first 4 birds of the Master. The honor position was set between the dog and the marks. I was sweating bullets, but she did great. Crept two inches and reheeled herself. I was amazed.
 
#9 ·
I took basically a whole year and didn't run my dog rowdy while I worked on this. I never saw this article but talked with Pete on the phone and he explained how this works. I think I checked our progress a couple times by entering master tests and picked the dog up both times for not following through with his end of the bargain. We eventually got it and I ran 4 Q's last fall and only had him come off the mat one setup. It isint some miracle cure but it made a major difference. Along with this I put a steady tab on his collar--some days we heeled backwards when the marks were going off and some days I held a steady tab and made him completely still. This method tends to create movement in my dog so it worked much better when we started working the steady tab along with it.

It was nice to run and see the dog that was a chronic creeper stay with me on th May for a few trials. I will say this though--your dogs marking will drop while you work on this new way to run--they tend not to mark well when their moving backwards. I got away from practicing it over the winter and ran an AM this fall and the beast was back. Guess what we've done a lot of lately? The keys are silence from you and making the dog always conscious of where you are. It takes some time but really can go a long eat to keeping em honest.
 
#10 ·
I would like to add:
As I have said earlier in posts, I have a tab on the dog when training and the point is training; I make a religious point in training to make my stand to the dog in understanding me and not what is out there for them. Understand me and you will get the reward. This continues on every training session without second thought to me and to the dog. I have made it a habit to me and the dog knows.

Once you start something….don’t stop…:)

My two cents worth over the years.:)
 
#14 · (Edited)
I can't get inside Pete's head on this but having spoken with him a bunch of times I get what he's doing pretty well.

If I could add some detail (magazine articles can't be war and peace) to a great article, I teach these skills to a wide variety of completely inexperienced handlers and dogs in my obedience practice.

One tip on getting the dog to move "Straight" back is to place the dog between yourself and a wall or fence line while also using a "suit case" leash (as was suggested) keep the back end in alignment.

I also use a different verbal cue "back up" as opposed to "heel" when going straight back, simply because I like to parse things out a bit more for the dog. Heel can mean a lot of things in most trainer's language. Get in position, pivot backward, etc... I find that inexperienced handlers with totally green dogs have a better chance if I spell things out more clearly for them.

I haven't talked to Pete in a while but I would imagine in the suggested process heel is meant to mean "maintain your position". I'm surely not arguing that logic. Pete has helped me numerous times with a wide variety of challenging problems, just by speaking to me on the phone. I just like to give the dog separate cues for each action so...

When my dog comes back in to me I either say "left" or "right" to indicate what side I want him/her on... "back up" to back straight up, "heel" to mean pivot with me backward (push) and "here" to pivot with me forward (pull).

Also, just to clarify for people who use the e-collar in a more "corrective" type manner, when the term "low level stimulation" is used here I believe (with 99% certainty) that Pete is referring to a level of stim that produces a change in the dog's behavior but with very little, if any physical or vocal reaction from the dog. You want to reinforce the behavior but preserve the dog's drive in this process, so if the ears go down and the dog vocalizes and goes flat on you, the stim level was probably too high.

The idea is to promote and "Recondition" an appropriate response while the dog is in a high state of drive. If you hit the collar too hard and knock them out of that state of mind, you lose the effect.

As one really great dog man once told me "Teach her to think in that state of mind". Meaning make the right decisions when she was extremely excited.
 
#23 ·
Your actually making the dog heel backwards with birds in the air. They don't maintain their position when you're teaching this. Maintaining their position is the ultimate goal however. As far as collar pressure, my dog needs a high 2 on a TT pro 500 for this. He gets his corrections on a high 4.
 
#15 ·
I find this interesting. I have not had a big issue with creeping, but my dog is high drive, and she knows she is a lot smarter than I am. She is trained in "obedience" and does have good obedience in the field but it is a firm handle that keeps her in line. She LOVES the game. I want to work on this.

My question.... Darrin you say you teach new handlers to do this and to give the command "back up". I have been corrected by my trainer using that word since "back" has a very specific meaning in field training. Dogs are situational, so I am very careful to not use anything with "back" when training field unless I am sending my dog on a blind, pile etc. Does "back up" confuse the dogs in the field?? I know I can use any word as long as I am consistant. Just wondering..... My dog understands back up (not necessarily in heel position) I want to clarify the command and behavior. I know it will come in handy especially in the field.

I am a new handler, this is my first dog. She is pretty awesome. Ran my first senior test last summer. I was a nervous nellie. First was a walk up then the shot flyer. I thought for SURE my dog would break on the walk up (nope she is well trained thanks to my trainers help) then when we had to turn for the flyer... I was talking with the judge after the briefing, he said when I pivot "step back". Sure enough, I step back and my dog pivoted backward. She does know... I just don't know all she knows...if you get my meaning. I have a good trainer who has put some good time into her.

Ann
 
#17 ·
Ann, saying "reverse" or even just using "heel" with a step straight back is just fine and will produce the clarity your trainer is looking for between "back up" and "back".

In my case I use "back up" and "back" with different body language and since the body language is more influential than the verbal cue, there is no confusion.
 
#18 ·
Darrin, doesn't the same thing apply to heel? Your body language is different so the dogs going to clue in on that.

Seems like heel should mean the relative position beside you with his front feet in line with your legs/heel and his head beside your knee facing squarely forward. So if you back up, the heel command should keep the dog in that position relative to you. So heel would be used as a command for the dog to get in and remain in that relative position. At the line it would mean to square up with you in that specific location. Perhaps using here to pull him forward to you if he's too far back.

If you want to back the dog up independent of your movement you'd need another command.

Not trying to be critical, just trying to understand.
 
#19 ·
That's the way most people do it and it works fine Jerry. Heel = maintain your position.

I so some things differently because my dogs are 95% obedience demo dogs and 5% hunting test retrievers.

I design my obedience to accommodate consumers more-so than myself. I even say "stay" to people's dogs because I learned that a large percentage of them, whether I taught them to do it or not, would be saying "stay" when I wasn't around and the dog wouldn't get it because it wasn't being trained properly.
 
#21 ·
I tried the 2 prong approach. Neve made a difference. I would take her off site before running, remind her what sit means but once at the test, it was on. She would forget what I just did. This was only on honor. She would smoke the test, not moving one the line as working dog, but just too much to sit on honor. The back step healing helped me.
 
#28 ·
CREEPING AND BREAKING.........is the end product you allow in training....you don't need to write a 3 page story on the issue, bottom line you have low standards and that's what you allowed to happen...Randy
 
#38 ·
When you get to the Honor Box don't do panty waist stuff Like standing sideways or try to hide the flyer station.
Just sit the dog down and relax. Maybe heel dog on side away from working dog ir flyer if you have to.
They know what an honor is. Hell, mine was so relaxed she would leave sit as birds were shot and flip on her back rubbing in the grass. Made me nervous sometimes but they know what an honor is.
To keep mine busy I would even show her the birds going off sometimes or sit her on the flyer side. Only break ever was as Bye Dog and flyer guns stepped out from behind a rock 30 yds out and sluced a duck. Gone!
Anyway just relax and train
 
#40 ·
This has been a great post and no feelings hurt here. I am thankful that people are willing to share what works for them to correct problems. I accept any advice, sort through it and use what might work for myself and my dog.

The dog I have is high drive and I am a novice to say the least. She is the first dog I have ever trained or handled for any AKC or UKC event, so I am not ashamed to say that I made mistakes both in training and handling at tests. I really enjoy working with her and she loves to work, that's what matters.
 
#41 ·
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If you live in Lower Alabama the only advice you'll Ever need can be found by hangin with Lanse. If you're not doing that you're not doin'.
 
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