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Thread: Casting into the wind

  1. #71
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    You are teaching them to HANDLE ,,, Or TAKE CASTS!!!!!

    Thats what the OP started the thread about.

    His dogs struggle with casting due to a factor.

    Teach them FIRST to handle.

    JMHO.

    Amatureistic regards,

    Gooser
    This isn't a one or the other question, you do both. I was just answering Kelly's question about why and how sight or pattern blinds help a dog learn to fight factors. You want a dog that will carry a line and handle. I run cold blinds 2:1 versus pattern blinds. I also handle my dog on the pattern field by adding factors, a gun, mark or hay bale obstical. I also change the angle by running from way different spots, and I occasionally send for one blind, then stop and cast ton another 2/3 of the way there.

    We tend to argue black and white on RTF, it's usually more complicated than that.

  2. #72
    Senior Member PalouseDogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    You are teaching them to HANDLE ,,, Or TAKE CASTS!!!!!

    Thats what the OP started the thread about.

    His dogs struggle with casting due to a factor.

    Teach them FIRST to handle.

    JMHO.

    Amatureistic regards,

    Gooser
    Based on the way the OP phrased the question, his dog is not taking a cast into the wind. Before he sets up cold blinds or 3-peats or whatever, wouldn't the first step be far more basic? Shouldn't he start with casting drills on windy days? My completely novice inclination would be to start ultra-simple (if the problem is extreme) with a pile of white bumpers on short grass at a short distance. Rotate yourself and the dog so that you are making different casts and the dog has to go different angles with respect to the wind. (E.g., if wind is from 9 o'clock, set pile at 9 o'clock, dog at center of clock face, handler at 3 o'clock, cast right and left back. move yourself to 6 o'clock, cast left over, etc., then set up to pile is at 90 degrees to wind, etc.) With only one visible pile to start, the dog essentially has to take the cast into the wind and can't be wrong. Over time, add distance, switch to orange bumpers, add piles, etc., etc.)

    It seems to me that before you try to teach a dog to hold a line against wind using a cold blind combined with casting into the wind, you have to first teach them to take a cast into the wind.

    But, given that dogs do not generalize well, how well do casting drills on windy days translate to taking casts into wind on cold blinds?
    Kelly Cassidy (person)

    HR Maple Cassidy CDX JH RE (golden retriever)
    Alder Cassidy CDX RE (standard poodle chipmunk chaser)
    plus whacked-out weird Burka (elderly mix-breed rescue girl)

  3. #73
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    My response on red!



    Based on the way the OP phrased the question, his dog is not
    taking a cast into the wind. I would think FIRST you would have to ask yourself how well the dog handels?? Is that dog a young dog that really doesnt have much experience being handled? is the Basics solid? Is the dog really ready to run a cold blind with a strong factor like wind? Before he sets up cold blinds or 3-peats or whatever, wouldn't the first step be far more basic?Read my answere in red below!Shouldn't he start with casting drills on windy days? My completely novice inclination would be to start ultra-simple (if the problem is extreme) with a pile of white bumpers on short grass at a short distance. Rotate yourself and the dog so that you are making different casts and the dog has to go different angles with respect to the wind. (E.g., if wind is from 9 o'clock, set pile at 9 o'clock, dog at center of clock face, handler at 3 o'clock, cast right and left back. move yourself to 6 o'clock, cast left over, etc., then set up to pile is at 90 degrees to wind, etc.) With only one visible pile to start, the dog essentially has to take the cast into the wind and can't be wrong. Over time, add distance, switch to orange bumpers, add piles, etc., etc.)
    My responses in red!!!!




    It seems to me that before you try to teach a dog to hold a line against wind using a cold blind combined with casting into the wind, you have to first teach them to take a cast into the wind.
    We teach them basic casts after the T the TT by running the handeling Wagon wheel. We TEACH them all those casts in a controlled situation. We teach the angle backs, right and lefgt, the angle ins, right and left, the straight comein cast,, and the refresher of the Overs ,right and left,along with the straight backs we ran them on with the T and TT!! We do this proceedure BEFORE we ask them to run their first cold blinds of course!!
    But, given that dogs do not generalize well, how well do casting drills on windy days translate to taking casts into wind on cold blinds?

    I dont believe drills necessarily do translate to cold blinds with some factors! The only way to have the dog comfortable with those certain situations is to run a LOT of cold blinds!! WITH!!!!! a very good foundation in basics!!,,,,, and add Factors as you progress..




    P.S.

    My good friend John!!! Not everybody runs pattern blinds!! I was stating my experiences with what has worked well recently for me.. Many roads to meca!
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 05-02-2014 at 11:20 AM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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  4. #74
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    No problem Gooser.

  5. #75
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Damn!!! I can BaBBLE!!

    I have posted this link many time!

    It explains what I was trying to say much better than How I tried to say it..... Make sense??? Prolly not!!

    http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfarm...20Farmer_1.pdf
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  6. #76
    Senior Member RookieTrainer's Avatar
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    Bon, I am not sure I understand what you are saying, but I am sure that I want to.

    My dog has lots of confidence and lots of momentum. He normally takes good initial lines, and we are starting to introduce lots of factors and handling.

    With a sight blind I know beyond a shadow of a doubt (barring some egregious factor) that he would line it if I would let him. I always blow at least one whistle with this dog, and I have learned when in doubt put a whistle on him. He is fast and can get in trouble very quickly.

    Are you saying that sight blinds sort of help them learn to fight factors without really knowing they are being taught? Help a rookie out here. PM me if you don't want to have the discussion here.

    Quote Originally Posted by BonMallari View Post
    John : you hit on exactly why I politely disagreed with Gooser about running lots of COLD BLINDS.

    Clint has always had the reputation of having very good lining dogs...notice I said lining and not necessarily handling, but one of the things he does to promote that is to run a lot of sight blinds and very few cold blinds,because with sight blinds as with pattern blinds the success rates are high as compared to cold blinds where more corrections are needed and they turn into testing the dog as opposed to teaching the dog..like I stated its more a philosophical stance than a procedural one

    You are also correct about having rolling hills for training grounds, just like a golf course the changes in slope can be just a diabolical on a short retrieve as opposed to one on a flat featureless field
    Steve Wyatt

    HR Belle's Rolling Big Rig "Jimmy"

  7. #77
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Steve : as I mentioned in my post its more a philosophical stance as opposed to a procedural one .Ted and Gooser respectively come from one camp and I and my brother from another, even Lanse will tell you we differ..its basically a glass half full vs half empty debate, but in this one its a good lining dog vs a good handling dog. I come from the camp that prefers a good lining dog and teach them to handle, the Colorado contingent probably comes from the camp of preferring a good handling dog and teach them to line...

    I believe the first cast is actually when the dog leaves you side,hence my stance on preferring a good lining dog, again that itself can be debated ad nausem or a urinating match..neither is right neither is wrong...
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  8. #78
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    It is a philosophical - and I think, practical - difference. I think it is important for young dogs to learn to handle and to learn what it means to be a team player. I think sight blinds do not foster handling and teamwork as well as cold blinds do.

    It is the rare All Age blind that can be lined. You need a dog that can take very precise casts. I think dogs that are raised with cold blinds are more likely to give me the cast I need.

    Ted
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  9. #79
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I'll openly admit that I have had fast, high momentum lining dogs, who at times don't like turning over the reins. I can't tell you how many blinds we lined out at full speed only to need a very slight change of direction, but can't get it. We were out of balance, which is a common theme throughout dog training. That doesn't mean I neglected cold blinds, like I said, I do two cold blinds for every pattern blind. It just means that for that high momentum, confident runner, I should have put a greater emphasis on zero tolerance, precise handling from the get go.

  10. #80
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
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    I'll openly admit that I have had fast, high momentum lining dogs, who at times don't like turning over the reins. I can't tell you how many blinds we lined out at full speed only to need a very slight change of direction, but can't get it. We were out of balance, which is a common theme throughout dog training. That doesn't mean I neglected cold blinds, like I said, I do two cold blinds for every pattern blind. It just means that for that high momentum, confident runner, I should have put a greater emphasis on zero tolerance, precise handling from the get go.

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