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Thread: DNA Determined Defects....

  1. #21
    Senior Member Nicole's Avatar
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    Every dog is a carrier for something... we just might not test for it yet.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    EIC, CNM, PRA are nothing to obsess over. I can test and not produce affecteds. End of story, in my world.

    Dysplasia is trickier. Some genetic, some environmental. I urge owners to use common sense, with growing pups, especially jumping, especially prolonged running on hard surfaces, body slamming with other dogs, and overfeeding/poor diet, etc etc. I do OFA on mine. I think I've met my responsibilities by doing so. I know stuff still happens. I've been lucky. In all the years and all the Labs I've had, I've had 4 dysplastic hips, 3 in pups I bought (for which I took a hit financially), 1 in a pup I bred. I chose to refund the pup price vs placing another pup there. I've had one allergy mutt and one allergy Lab, both were miserable and expensive. Same allergy Lab also had both CCLs repaired by two. Also had bilateral moderate hip dysplasia. She was a trainwreck physically but mentally one of the smartest, birdiest and most entertaining dogs I've ever had and I don't regret one minute of the 12 years she lived.

    I want ribbons. With a dog that looks like a Lab (real, not dilute) and lives as healthy a life as possible. I don't have all the answers. I don't care to belabor the minutiae of how many generations of hips and elbows and eyes and blah blah blah. It's important, yes, but not the whole story. I just know what I like when I see it on the weekends, what dog I like next to me at the line and in the field and under my feet in the kitchen. Breeding is more than pedigree and health clearances. Sometimes, the heart and the gut matter more and that 10 year old dog still showing up in the 4th is better than all the paper you can line a wall with. I will take a pup from a dog without elbow clearance that has proven itself time and again over the years, over one from a spotless OFA record that has proven exactly nothing in the field.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

  3. #23
    Senior Member Terri's Avatar
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    The best place to look at the affects of the dilute gene can be seen in other breeds of dogs that allow it. More health issues. Friends I have are very careful not to breed two dilute dogs.

    I would like to see more shoulder x-rays posted to OFA. As for agility I would like to see more choices in jump heights from AKC. That is one of the reasons I don't play in their venue and picked another venue.


    To address the OP post: The Labrador breed can carry over a hundred different diseases/health conditions, but we only have a handful of test to identify them before breeding. The experts (I'm not one of them) do not yet understand everything about how these conditions affect each other. Just like in people carrying a certain type of condition prevents a worse condition from presenting itself. Until we know the whole story we need to work with the information that is available.


    Terri

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    This knowledge has been there for a long while about CHD. However, if we just let pups grow up, and let the chips fall where they may, might that mean that those who "survive" without any CHD are genetically superior in whatever other factors may play a role in the physical manifestation of CHD? I have Goldens, not Labs, but the only thing I tell pupowners is to keep their dogs at a healthy, lean weight and not do any obviously stupid things like letting their pup jump out of a truck or SUV until its growth plates have a chance to mature (usually 12-14 mos. old) Though depending on the ground-footing and height of the vehicle, it may never be a great idea to encourage jumping from heights a dog's structure was never intended to sustain, especially on a regular basis. Though even that may have more impact on the front end than the back end. I actually worry more about the front end in leaping ditches and cover in training, and starting agility obstacles too young for a still-developing pup.

    Since I don't have Labs, I'm pretty much out in left field on the color issues of Labs. Aside from the aesthetic aspect of silvers, are there any health issues associated with this deviation in color that would make it more abhorrent than ignoring proven health issues like CHD, ED, etc.?

  4. #24
    Senior Member wheelhorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post

    Since I don't have Labs, I'm pretty much out in left field on the color issues of Labs. Aside from the aesthetic aspect of silvers, are there any health issues associated with this deviation in color that would make it more abhorrent than ignoring proven health issues like CHD, ED, etc.?
    Color Dilute Alopecia
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  5. #25
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    Steve-

    First of al, breeding only clears is essentially a pipe dream. With the wealth of genetic tests today, to get two dogs which are clear of all the issues plus have good hips amd elbows, you're just not going to find many of those around. Secondly, the genetic professionals will tell you that if you go after a condition really strenuously, there's every chance you'll simply produce another, and perhaps more deadly, condition. That's happened with Portuguese Water Dogs, Basenji, and either Huskies or Malamutes all within the last 20 years. Now we're smarter.
    Last edited by Eric Johnson; 05-03-2014 at 10:34 PM.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Swack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    This knowledge has been there for a long while about CHD. However, if we just let pups grow up, and let the chips fall where they may, might that mean that those who "survive" without any CHD are genetically superior in whatever other factors may play a role in the physical manifestation of CHD? I have Goldens, not Labs, but the only thing I tell pupowners is to keep their dogs at a healthy, lean weight and not do any obviously stupid things like letting their pup jump out of a truck or SUV until its growth plates have a chance to mature (usually 12-14 mos. old) Though depending on the ground-footing and height of the vehicle, it may never be a great idea to encourage jumping from heights a dog's structure was never intended to sustain, especially on a regular basis. Though even that may have more impact on the front end than the back end. I actually worry more about the front end in leaping ditches and cover in training, and starting agility obstacles too young for a still-developing pup.

    Since I don't have Labs, I'm pretty much out in left field on the color issues of Labs. Aside from the aesthetic aspect of silvers, are there any health issues associated with this deviation in color that would make it more abhorrent than ignoring proven health issues like CHD, ED, etc.?
    Gerry,

    I know the knowledge concerning the environmental component of CHD has been out there for a long time. I thought the estimate of heritability of 20 - 30%, although still considered to be a moderately heritable trait, was probably a lower value than most people might expect. Also, I'm not saying that hip scores aren't worth considering in making a breeding decision. However, I wanted to emphasize that we have more control over whether our pups develop CHD as adults beyond simply choosing their parents and hoping for the best.

    Concerning the dilute gene issue, I think it goes beyond aesthetics and even the potential for the introduction for genetic health issues from a foreign gene pool. From my perspective, it speaks to the integrity of the Labrador breed. The standard states in plain English that there are three approved colors; black, yellow, and chocolate. Period. To ignore that fact and permit other color variations is absurd.

    Ironically, my post that you responded to was written on Saturday AM before I left to go to a HHRC club training day where I found a, so called, silver Labrador in attendance. I had to ask what breed of dog it was. I've been around Labradors for over a quarter of a century and have attended FT's, conformation shows, hunt tests, and obedience trials. I've seen Labs of all types. This dog displayed nothing to suggest he was a Labrador. My tongue is still sore from biting it!

    I heard there's a group of Lab breeders who have organized to try to fight recognition of the dilutes. Does anyone have information about this group?

    Swack
    Last edited by Swack; 05-04-2014 at 12:31 PM.
    Jeff Swackhamer

  7. #27
    Senior Member FOM's Avatar
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    If we only were as concerned about human breeding as we are about our retrievers...some of us might not even be here, myself for sure would not be...short people regards,

    FOM
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Todd Caswell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOM View Post
    If we only were as concerned about human breeding as we are about our retrievers...some of us might not even be here, myself for sure would not be...short people regards,

    FOM
    And food as well, guarantee there is someone right now sitting in line at Mcdonalds fretting over what brand of all natural, organic, grain free, white meat only dog food to feed

  9. #29
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Mann View Post
    This has been really beat to death. But from a genetics standpoint that is a REALLY bad idea. The reasons have been described in detail.

    Buck
    This and the bigger problem that the vast majority of the 300,000+ labs registered with AKC and not bread by responsible breeders. Check you local news papers or Facebook groups and see how many litters come for AKC registered dogs and that is their only selling point. Every weeks there is somebody on the HRC or other gun dog Facebook pages advertising litters with no health clearances and most of them don't even know what health clearances are.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swack View Post
    I heard there's a group of Lab breeders who have organized to try to fight recognition of the dilutes. Does anyone have information about this group?

    Swack
    There's been a bunch of petitions to all the kennel clubs on the dilute issue; I fear it's to little to late, the only thing that might make a difference would be to put dilute as being a disqualification via the standard spelled out in black and white. Much the same as dudleys are a disqualification doesn't stop people from breeding them and registering them as yellow but at least they are defined as not standard. I don't think you're going to get dilutes out of the gene pool now it's been too long and those little d's could be hiding anywhere. Plus it's never been definitely proven that some orginal stock somewhere didn't truly carry the such gene. Until the standard changes to disallow the color, breeders can continue to breed and sell them as a special :uniquely" colored lab.

    Heck if the breeders do all health clearanes their stock might rival many AKC labradors found on craigs list or in the pennysaver
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 05-04-2014 at 10:25 PM.
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