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Thread: Pope Francis

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    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Default Pope Francis

    Pope's recent statement:
    VATICAN CITY Pope Francis is calling for governments to redistribute wealth to the poorest and for a new spirit of generosity to take hold.


    Francis made the appeal during a speech Friday to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and the heads of major U.N. agencies who are meeting in Rome this week.


    The pontiff has frequently lashed out at the injustices of capitalism and the global economic system that excludes so much of humanity.


    On Friday, he called for the United Nations to promote an "ethical mobilization" of solidarity with the poor and a new spirit of generosity that also addresses the root causes of poverty and hunger.


    He called for "the legitimate redistribution of economic benefits by the state, as well as indispensable cooperation between the private sector and civil society."

    What type of redistribution is legitimate v. what type of redistribution is illegitimate? But there is an "indispensable cooperation" with the private sector? Why is the private sector even needed in the Pope's premise? Maybe he does have a grasp of the fact that govt does a poor job of generating wealth that is needed for the redistribution? I'm not sure I can make sense of how this would work.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05...cmp=latestnews
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    Pope's recent statement:

    What type of redistribution is legitimate v. what type of redistribution is illegitimate? But there is an "indispensable cooperation" with the private sector? Why is the private sector even needed in the Pope's premise? Maybe he does have a grasp of the fact that govt does a poor job of generating wealth that is needed for the redistribution? I'm not sure I can make sense of how this would work.

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05...cmp=latestnews
    Did you read his speech as a whole, or just what was released on a blog?

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    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    perhaps he was thinking of this?

    Deuteronomy 15:7-11
    “If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother, but you shall open your hand wide to him and willingly lend him sufficient for his need, whatever he needs. Beware lest there be a wicked thought in your heart, saying, ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand,’ and your eye be evil against your poor brother and you give him nothing, and he cry out to the LORD against you, and it become sin among you. You shall surely give to him, and your heart should not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your works and in all to which you put your hand. For the poor will never cease from the land; therefore I command you, saying, ‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’ ” (NKJV)
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    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    Caring for the poor has always seemed to be a central theme in Christianity. I do not find it odd or out of place for the pope to talk about it frequently, seriously and often.
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    Ain't no country going to heaven based on the amount of money redistributed. Ain't nobody going to heaven based on how much they pay in taxes to redistrbute. It's all about the heart, you don't know mine and i don't know yours.

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    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    No mngundog, I did not read the entire speech.

    Henlee, I don't at all disagree with the Christian admonition to be charitable to those who have less when you have more.

    OTOH, is it talking about the govt doing it on your behalf? We see politicians being stingy with their charity from their own funds, while being very generous with taxpayer funds. We see some wealthy people (Christian and others) who are very generous in sharing their personal wealth. We don't see many of those even who are generous reducing themselves to the barest sustenance to equal that of the poorest in order to help those who are very poor. Is it the purview of the state to chastize those who are not perfect in their charity?

    If a farmer gives generously from the fruit of his labor to the poor, he must still retain some seed for the next planting. If he does not do so, there will be no food for anyone. So, I have to imagine that even with being charitable, the giver must use some kind of wisdom for stewardship of the bounty. Does the Bible imply that the "state" should do this on our behalf? Must not charity be voluntary to be the charity that the Bible speaks of?

    There are also biblical references for hard work, investment and caring for one's family; and rendering unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's and to God that which is God's. It appears that it is then left to humans to figure out how to balance these various pieces of guidance.

    The part that I find puzzling is how there can be "legitimate" redistribution v. some other kind of redistribution. Is there some illegitimate type of redistribution? Or does he simply mean that it is wrong for anyone to have more than anyone else? If so, is it right for a Pope to have all those expensive, custom-made robes and living amenities when he could do as well in a simple cassock and less luxurious home?

    While Popes are to be considered infallible in matters of the faith, I believe there is also a tenet that they are not considered infallible in all matters. They are, after all, subject to human imperfection. A Pope can say that charity is in keeping with the faith, but not sure where the line is between being faithful and being political.
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    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Let's continue to keep the separation between the State and Religion! It cuts both ways, it is not the Pope's role to tell our Government what to force the people to do. That is between the individuals and their God.

    I seem to recall reading this statement by the Pope in full context, and his meaning was not as the 'quote' suggests anyway....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    No mngundog, I did not read the entire speech.

    Henlee, I don't at all disagree with the Christian admonition to be charitable to those who have less when you have more.

    OTOH, is it talking about the govt doing it on your behalf? We see politicians being stingy with their charity from their own funds, while being very generous with taxpayer funds. We see some wealthy people (Christian and others) who are very generous in sharing their personal wealth. We don't see many of those even who are generous reducing themselves to the barest sustenance to equal that of the poorest in order to help those who are very poor. Is it the purview of the state to chastize those who are not perfect in their charity?

    If a farmer gives generously from the fruit of his labor to the poor, he must still retain some seed for the next planting. If he does not do so, there will be no food for anyone. So, I have to imagine that even with being charitable, the giver must use some kind of wisdom for stewardship of the bounty. Does the Bible imply that the "state" should do this on our behalf? Must not charity be voluntary to be the charity that the Bible speaks of?

    There are also biblical references for hard work, investment and caring for one's family; and rendering unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's and to God that which is God's. It appears that it is then left to humans to figure out how to balance these various pieces of guidance.

    The part that I find puzzling is how there can be "legitimate" redistribution v. some other kind of redistribution. Is there some illegitimate type of redistribution? Or does he simply mean that it is wrong for anyone to have more than anyone else? If so, is it right for a Pope to have all those expensive, custom-made robes and living amenities when he could do as well in a simple cassock and less luxurious home?

    While Popes are to be considered infallible in matters of the faith, I believe there is also a tenet that they are not considered infallible in all matters. They are, after all, subject to human imperfection. A Pope can say that charity is in keeping with the faith, but not sure where the line is between being faithful and being political.
    The speech takes about 2 minutes to read, it will probably give you more answers than the FauxNews article gives in their use of two partial phrases out of it.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    I am going to check out the whole speech in a minute. I however believe that the responsibility for the less fortunate in the context of a Christianity falls on everyone. That would include the government, Private Business and individuals. We however are not a Christian nation, but rather a secular one. Obviously we can still provide for the poor being while still being secular.
    During break time at obedience school, two dogs were talking.
    One said to the other..."The thing I hate about obedience school is you learn ALL this stuff you will never use in the real world."

  10. #10
    Senior Member .44 magnum's Avatar
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    I do not discount what the pope wants. He is preaching the word.. it's his job and life to let you and I know that greed is a sin.
    I like one-shot kills where possible and prefer to do all my hunting before I shoot. ..... Elmer Keith



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