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Thread: Iraq

  1. #31
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampcollielover View Post
    Mr. 'Smart Guy' again shows his lack of historical perspective. Muslin's have been killing Christian's for thousands of years, not as a result of our policies...!
    It is really hard to discuss anything with you because you really don't know much about the situation. You obviously get all of your talking points from the radio and Fox News.

    Christians and Muslims have lived in peace for many years until we started meddling in their affairs after WW2. There may have been an occasion act of violence but nothing compared to what we have today!

    Today's situation in Iraq is about the Shi'a and Sunni. Why the hell would we want to get involved with that?

    It is big government interventionist like you that has led to the violence and depletion of our Treasury and loss of thousands of American soldiers and Marines for a failed political Foreign Policy!

    The best thing we could do as Americans is to stay they hell out of their business and let them settle their issues. That's because what you advocate has no end to it and is a lose/lose for the USA. The more we kill, the more they bring to arms. Your solution only makes the USA and the world a more dangerous place!
    “The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” –Thomas Jefferson

  2. #32
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Christians and Muslims have lived in peace for many years until we started meddling in their affairs after WW2. There may have been an occasion act of violence but nothing compared to what we have today!

    That is the most insane comment I have ever read!! Its just laughable!!

    All you have to do is read a fe passages from the Koran.
    Below kinda spells it out!
    "Jizya" is a poll tax levied on Christians by muslims.
    OR, just another term that defines OPPRESSION
    Franco,,, Do you support tyranny and Oppression???


    This massive crime is documented in shocking and painstaking detail in Raymond Ibrahim’s new [COLOR=#0000CC !important]book "Crucified Again: Exposing Islam’s New War on Christians". [COLOR=#0000CC !important]The book[/COLOR] is required reading for anyone who cares about religious freedom, human rights, and/or the survival of Christians in their ancestral lands.[/COLOR]
    In "Crucified Again", Ibrahim methodically presents overwhelming evidence of Muslim persecution of Christians (documented with about 700 footnotes). His exhaustive, scholarly, and compelling study uses many news and historical sources, and statements by contemporary Muslim clerics. The evidentiary details are far too numerous to summarize here, but a few examples stand out.

    Ibrahim explains the theological basis for Muslim persecution of Christians. He notes the Islamic belief that Koranic verses from later in Muhammad’s career abrogate contradictory verses from earlier. The hostile verses naming Christians “infidels” occur towards the end of his career, so they override any tolerance for Christians in earlier verses. Ibrahim writes: “The Koran’s final word on the fate of Christians and Jews is found in Koran 9:29 [where] Allah commands believers, [to fight them]...'until they pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.'”
    Ibrahim cites the writing of renowned Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun [1332-1406]:
    [Jihad] is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force ... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them…But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 06-13-2014 at 09:37 AM.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    Quote:
    Christians and Muslims have lived in peace for many years until we started meddling in their affairs after WW2. There may have been an occasion act of violence but nothing compared to what we have today!

    That is the most insane comment I have ever read!! Its just laughable!!

    Do you have any examples to back up your claim or are you still on a Crusade?
    “The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” –Thomas Jefferson

  4. #34
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    It is really hard to discuss anything with you because you really don't know much about the situation. You obviously get all of your talking points from the radio and Fox News.
    It is really hard discussing anything with you because you think you know it all! Yet you always demonstrate that you don't! Your comments on Fox and talking points it just also, a really poor assumption....!
    Christians and Muslims have lived in peace for many years until we started meddling in their affairs after WW2. There may have been an occasion act of violence but nothing compared to what we have today! For many years? Talk about an abstract comment....! Pick a few years/data points...and make that comment! Typical Libertarian Logic....NONE

    Today's situation in Iraq is about the Shi'a and Sunni. Why the hell would we want to get involved with that? I have never suggested we go into Iraq....I have only discussed how we should deal with Radical Muslims who attack us....the original reason to go in was based on the attack by Iraq on our Allie, Kuwait,...not Shi'a/Sunni's....

    It is big government interventionist like you that has led to the violence and depletion of our Treasury and loss of thousands of American soldiers and Marines for a failed political Foreign Policy! I have stated many times that I did not agree with all of our wars since Korea....guess you missed that fact!

    The best thing we could do as Americans is to stay they hell out of their business and let them settle their issues. That's because what you advocate has no end to it and is a lose/lose for the USA. The more we kill, the more they bring to arms. Your solution only makes the USA and the world a more dangerous place!
    You obviously are not a student of history, we tried staying out of it, and as a result, nearly lost it all!.... nor do you understand the people we are fighting, radical muslin's are sworn to kill us....all Jews and Christians are targeted! Our Liberal media claims that is because of what we have done, in reality it is what their religious teachers have told them...based on their religion! Maybe you have been drinking to much Libertarian 'Cool Aid'!


  5. #35
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    As recently as WW1, the Muslim world backed the Allied efforts against the Ottoman Turks!

    I'm not saying that there wasn't discrimination against Christians in the Muslim world nor discrimination against Muslims in the Christian world. But, what we have done since WW2 in our middle east affairs is why the Muslim world has risen against the USA.

    We were at peace with the Persians prior to deposing their Democratically elected leader and replaced that with our puppet, the Shah. All of which led to a Islamic revolution against our interference.
    Iraq was neutered after the Gulf War. Our invasion only harden their resolve against us and grew the ranks of Jihad.

    It has been our Foreign Policy since WW2 as to why there is a growing hatred in that region for the USA! Had we minded our own business, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in today. Our policies have given a rebirth to the Jahdist movement. In their minds, they are fighting against foreign aggression. We have created a no win situation and throwing more American lives and treasure at the problem will only grow more hatred against the USA.
    Last edited by Franco; 06-13-2014 at 10:04 AM.
    “The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” –Thomas Jefferson

  6. #36
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    I gave you example! The Book!!

    You answered a question with a question!

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
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    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
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  7. #37
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    What better way for an Islamic extreamist to demand "Jizya"than to have the Infidels at their knees while tha tower above them with the majority of the worlds oil wells.

    Nothing more concerning than a terrorist with an oil well..

    A stable Middle east is in the best interest to the United states, and the rest of the modern world..

    You can bury your head in the sand if you want,, but maybe someday some crazo with stick a hot saber up what you have exposed!

    Gooser
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet SH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  8. #38
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I gave you example! The Book!!

    You answered a question with a question!

    Gooser
    And, I gave you the reasons why Jihad has grown since WW2!

    Killing their leaders and their families like what has been suggested here is not going to end Jihad. It will only grow it!

    The only pragmatic solution is to let them settle their differences without more American lives and treasure being wasted.

    Again, the Sunni insurrection in Iraq is a direct result of Maliki's lack of inclusion in the new Iraqi government. To suggest that we continue to support Maliki along with his corruption is just more failed Foreign Policy and not worth another American life(s) and money.

    Glen Beck and Levine make their livings scaring folks like yourself and Swampy!

    And, if a stable middle east is in our best interest, then why did we dis-stable it? Because that is exactly what we did and your policy calls for more dis-stabilization.
    Last edited by Franco; 06-13-2014 at 11:00 AM.
    “The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” –Thomas Jefferson

  9. #39
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    It has been our Foreign Policy since WW2 as to why there is a growing hatred in that region for the USA! Had we minded our own business, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in today. Our policies have given a rebirth to the Jahdist movement. In their minds, they are fighting against foreign aggression. We have created a no win situation and throwing more American lives and treasure at the problem will only grow more hatred against the USA.
    I'm not sure you can look at the history of Islam and assume that there would not have been a confrontation between Islam and western culture at some point. The socio-economic poverty of the ME also makes it fertile ground for rebellion against whomever is in power. Just witness the vehement division within Muslims themselves ... Shia v. Sunni. It seems that each of those two groups would as easily kill the other as "infidels" as they would a non-Muslim, not to mention the Taliban.

    I can grant that the US has given some momentum to the jihadists, but if they were ever to fully wipe out non-Muslims, they would again then turn on their own. Egypt was the least theocratic of the ME countries, but the MB was ready and waiting to fill the vacuum left by Muburak. Assad is, in most ways, pretty westernized as well, and look who is trying to bring him down.

    To blame the US, or the west, for the barbarism of Islam is not, to me, a strong argument. Intolerance is ingrained in Islam from its beginnings. It's again worth considering that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity, and much younger than Judaism. Where was Christianity in the 1400's?

    There is no denying the importance of ME oil in the world economies over the past 100 years. Try to imagine what today would be like without it? The west did not "plunder" the oil. They paid for it. Unfortunately, the money paid for it was not used to help the population, but helped keep them in poverty.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member dback's Avatar
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    http://www.charlesduelfer.com/blog/?p=244

    Best article I've read so far.
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