Your dog didn't get the marks as they were thrown. He didn't go after the shot flyer in the first series, he chose to go off in the woods after the first flyer (no-bird) that got away. Unfortunate the bird got away and wasn't able to be removed from the test apparently, so, you got carried to the second series. Next time you get a no-bird, especially a flyer, wait 3 dogs before you come back to the line. If your dog is that amped, work on it, work on no birds, walking your dog off line, etc. Second series, your dog went and visited the bird boy and swiped a bird from the gun station. That's not a mark. There was a mark thrown out there and your dog didn't go for it. When I'm training alone and have two wingers set at one station, dog is not allowed to go in and grab one off the winger just because that's easier found than the one that was actually thrown. I would not expect a rerun or a pass if my dog did that. Junior may be junior but that doesn't mean anything goes as long as a bird is brought back, there is some marking & trainability supposed to be involved.
As well, calling out judges on Monday morning = bad form. Fine to ask questions as generalities, such as, a dog bringing back a bird from the station vs the actual mark, but, those two judges gave up their weekend and volunteered to judge your dog, and here you are Monday morning venting about them on a public forum. Took about 3 seconds to look up your test and judges. If you, and every other noob, wants to be welcomed and treated with respect, then please reciprocate.
Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs
I agree the no bird flyer should have been picked up. On thing I learned is to ask the judges if it is ok for your dog to watch the no bird being picked up. It lets them know there is not bird there. Also if the flyer is the first bird thrown it should have been the first one again for your dog. Your dog did not get his birds in the same order as the others. It should not matter since it is singles, but on a rerun you should be starting all over again. Remeber allways walk off the line for not birds. Just go back in holding for 2 other dogs and come back. You will be supprised how much better it will be. As far as your dog getting a bird from the bird boy, that is a failure. Yes the duck should not have been on the ground, but your dog should not be by the birdboy. It is a single mark and pup should have gone directly to the fall and hunted.
You commented that someone came to the line with a chock lead, well that is against the rules and judges should have caught that and sent the handler back to the holding to come back with flat collar
Tough Break, usually on a flyer, if it's a NO bird in JH 90% of the time the dog will go the original bird, most of the time that bird gets picked up so you might luck into the dog going to the original fall then working back to the new fall. Still doesn't usually turn out great with a score in marking. Your dog has the issue that he brought back the original bird, it should have been removed from the field and not out there for him to pick up. There's an issue there, judges got to think through. Then you get the added complication of having him bring back a bird out of the station, another issue, for the judges to figure out. Perhaps just one too many issues, to think about. still I bet there was a bunch of discussion behind those books on your dog. It's OK to vent, but don't make to big of an issue out of it, this is one of those grey areas, of what to do when things go wrong. You were just Lucky on Sun . Doesn't mean I might not remember these judges and how they judge for the future .
Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 06-16-2014 at 12:50 PM.
"They's Just DAWGS"
"Hunting is a skill to be learned whether you do it early or late it still needs to be learned"
"I train dogs, Not papers"
GMRH-I HRCH Quick MH (most importantly Duck/Upland Enthusiast) Rip. July-2014
GMHR HRCH Lakota MH (most importantly Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
MHR HR Storm.. the Pup (Beginning Upland & Waterfowl Enthusiast)
From my reading (not seeing) your dog demonstrated the same problem on two marks. The bird was thrown and seen and you sent your dog. However, in 2 of the 4 cases, the dog honored his nose rather than the mark. The situations seem different but they are essentially the same. The fact that it happened twice is what probably did you in. Were I judging in that situation, I'd have pointed it out quietly to my co-judge and we'd have moved on ... and watched for it to happen again. It did so your dog didn't meet the standard as interpreted by the two judges. I've judged at all levels and have done just that in each ... seen an issue and I then elect to simply watch for it to happen again.
The bird in the woods should have been picked up but the time to sort this out is before the judges re-started the test. It doesn't take a moment to politely say, "Has that bird been picked up?" With all that's going on at the line, maybe it was a simple memory slip up by the judge(s). A non-judgmental query is simple enough and can't ever hurt you. I'll even ask this when I've been set back. It darn well should have with 3 dogs between the incident and the re-run but I'm going to make certain.
WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy") ... as is her daughter
SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH ("Muse")
Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie")
Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
Struan's Driving Us Crazy ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge
Let me just say...I am upset at what happened...I am disappointed in my self (not the dog/judges)....and i am just venting....now that this is done and over i can move on
like i said, i am here to learn, and that's whats being done with everybody's comments, so i do thank you for that! I am just over anxious to get my hunting buddy to earn that title
I am in no way shying away from this game, just going to learn from our mistakes and move on!
SHR Captain Drake of Dutchess JH. "Drake"
Kodiak Miss Angel "Koda" R.I.P.
It is good to vent, been their, done that! But this hunt testing or running field tests is a challenge for dogs, handlers, and judges! I love it because it is a challenge like playing in sports. But just like sports, you do get a few 'bad calls' or questionable calls. Learn from it, and move on as you have....
I had a test where the guys dog before me picked up a live flyer, and it was far from dead. The judges did not 'finish off the duck' just hung it in the rack. I did not notice this till later. I came up to the line and just as the judge called my number, that damn flyer in the rack started flopping around. Of course my boy turned around to see what was going on, and he never saw the mark! I asked the judge to let me leave the line and have a no bird called. They said no! I could not believe it. I had not trained for blinds, so when I sent my boy he went out a few yards and just started nosing around. I did not pass.
I could tell you other stories, but if you talk with other hunt test people you will here we all have stories like this....it is how we earn our stripes
keep going you will win the prize....!
Last edited by swampcollielover; 06-17-2014 at 08:52 AM.
The biggest lesson (IMO) to have learned from this is in relation to the no bird. As pointed out, if the no bird occurred on a dead bird, I'd come right back, but if it's a flyer.....I want the flyer as far removed from my dogs head as possible which will not occur if I do not wait at least 3 dogs. Even if the dogs jacked up as you found out....he remembers. Nothing is gained by coming right back and rerunning. Good luck going fwd!!
"If you have watched a pup learning the game, I do not have to tell you what it is like, and if you have not, I probably can't."- Datus Proper
TNT Sailors Lil Hurricane Addie MH ***
WR Cedars Field Blazing Tucker SH
If I am judging, there is no "option". You will be instructed to leash your dog and tell the Marshal to move you back 3 dogs. If there are not 3 dogs left to run, You will be instructed to come back in 15 minutes. Over the years I have been involved, I have seen many dogs implode when the handler is in a hurry to run. I believe that a short wait is the fairest thing to do.-Paul
there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.