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Hunt tests or Ego

10K views 47 replies 36 participants last post by  Bridget Bodine 
#1 ·
So the hunt test game started for the average guy/gal to build a better retriever hunting partner. We gave them titles and local tests for evaluations ; to give feedback on what items we can train on further. The dog and handler team are supposed to be judges by our peers (fellow hunters). We then achieve a title at the highest level and then this "CARROT" is dangling out there that says if you give up another two weeks of your time/job/family you can say you went to Master Nationals... So the question I have- is the Master Nationals about the average guy/gal wanting a better retrieving hunting partner? Folks- ask yourselves- you who are throwing birds each weeklend test and that you cant get your dog entered because it filled up to quickly to be a voice in your club and opt out if that is what it will take. There are other "dog games" -your hunting partner doesnt care about a plate nor a title!
 
#2 ·
Yeah- but you know as well as I do that any AKC event is going to be tailored to breeders etc regardless of what the activity mimics. Breeders (and i note you are one, so i neednt point out that my point is not entirely universal) wil ltell you that the value o hunt tests lies in evaluating breeding stock rather than hunting partners.

NAHRA, especially by virtue of being Unaffiliated with a registry truly has nothing to market themselves as other than evaluating and improving hunting retrievers. That's why conservation works well as a key piece of their platform.
 
#4 ·
your dog doesn't care one bit about titles.. so yes it is the owners ego. People who actually hunt with their dogs don't care about titles.

Breeders can take their dogs to all types of tests... get titles, but if they then don't go hunting with a good gun dog you have done it all for you, and not your dog.
 
#36 ·
your dog doesn't care one bit about titles.. so yes it is the owners ego. People who actually hunt with their dogs don't care about titles.
I am proud of my dogs and what we have done together. I hunt my dog, a LOT, and I do care about titles. It's all about having fun and bettering the breed.
 
#7 ·
I agree with the OP. the MN is nothing but an ego boost. A large majority of the folks that I know , (not the pros) are not pros and go to the national -or try- every year. With their dogs well into their senior years.
We all do the games because we love training the dogs- but a lot of people are way into it for their own egos,because as said, the dogs dont care what they retrieve.
 
#8 ·
My dogs as with most retrievers love retrieving birds regardless, training, hunt tes,t actual hunting. Hunting in my opion is the unlitimate fun a retriever. I know some people never take their dog hunting, to each is own. It is not so much about ego, as a lady told me once who has personally trained FC and countless other titles, it is about the journey with your hunting partner.
 
#10 ·
My dogs as with most retrievers love retrieving birds regardless, training, hunt tes,t actual hunting. Hunting in my opion is the unlitimate fun a retriever. I know some people never take their dog hunting, to each is own. It is not so much about ego, as a lady told me once who has personally trained FC and countless other titles, it is about the journey with your hunting partner.
This is a very true statement, but the key to it is "personally trained and journey with YOUR hunting partner....the MN could easily make it about the journey with your hunting partner with one easy rule change....but they won't...it's about dollars and accolades....Make MN an O/H event, then I will believe it's about the journey...;)
 
#11 ·
It really surprises me that so many people seem to think the way they do things with reference to their dog is the only valid way, and that those who do things differently should be given less priority. Why should they make the MN an O/H event?

Some folks enjoy the journey of having their dog professionally trained for all kinds of reasons. I'd imagine that almost all of these dogs, enjoy the journey as part of the owner/trainer/dog team. Some of the motivation people have for running tests is ego. So what? Some of the reasons some folks hunt is ego. The reason folks have a new jacked up 4x4 is ego. Ironically the reason the OP started this thread and the reason for all of the replies is ego is it not?
 
#12 ·
I can't say it is ego necessarily, but I will say that the majority of the dogs/handlers I personally know that go to the MN on a regular basis do not hunt their dogs and many of those who do hunt their dogs do so only a handful of times a year. That does not mean it is ego alone, many just think of HT as sport just as hunters think of hunting as their sport. That is just my personal knowledge and not meant to be a blanket statement. Over the last decade I see fewer and fewer handlers in AKC that actually hunt. More do in HRC, but even there you are seeing more and more participants that do not or seldom hunt their dogs. Using that you could say that even the weekend AKC test is not used to better hunting dogs.
 
#13 ·
Maybe some do it for their ego, but to say anyone that runs the MN or any other event is doing so strictly to stroke their ego is just not a valid statement. Sure dogs love retrieving whether it being in the MN or anywhere else. Kids also love playing ball in the backyard. Does this mean any kid or person that chooses to play the sport in a structured league or game is just doing it for an ego boost? Maybe they just enjoy doing it, meeting new people, and seeing new places.
 
#14 ·
I agree with your premiss, but running the MN is more akin to a person playing in a competitive league with a championship held somewhere across the country. Sure many run the MN for fun, but if it is just for fun you can run local test. People who play in the local softball league are doing it for fun. People playing in competitive leagues are more ego based.
People do many things for many different reasons and it is fair to say some do it for fun, some for money, and some for ego among other reasons.
 
#15 ·
I can count on about 3 fingers the people I know that run every year to qualify for the MN that do NOT hunt. Virtually every one of my buddies that are running Finished/Master are hardcore duck hunters. My dog gets close to 60 days a year just on ducks. The presuppositions in this thread are not accurate.
 
#16 ·
I can count on about 3 fingers the people I know that run every year to qualify for the MN that do NOT hunt. Virtually every one of my buddies that are running Finished/Master are hardcore duck hunters. My dog gets close to 60 days a year just on ducks. The presuppositions in this thread are not accurate.
no more accurate than yours.........
 
#18 ·
I don't know who is and who is not running events for their own ego, but what does it matter? What is wrong with having an ego? It's an important part of a healthy personality IMO, and as long as you're doing right by your 4-legged partner, go for it.

If your dog loves to train ... should I say, "if you can make your dog love to train") ... what's wrong with that. That's what you spend most of your time doing, right? True, they don't know or care about titles, but they love doing what they do to get titles! They DO love to run tests, right? Plenty of threads attesting to "amped-up dogs at tests". :)

And what about those photos of Dad & the dog & a tailgate full of birds? That's not an ego trip???

A good trial/test dog is about 3 training sessions an a little experience away from being an outstanding hunting dog.

JS
 
#20 ·
Tailgate pictures for me are about the memories. The last tailgate picture I took last season has my new pup and Cody, the dog I lost in April to cancer. That will always be her last photo. I also keep a journal so I can look back at the past season, great memories.
Hunting to me is about the experience; the sunrise the bird flights and the dog. I don't hunt if the dog doesn't go, I don't find it worth while, but that's just me.
 
#19 ·
I agree with the last part of your post badbullgator. Everyone does is for their own different reasons.

Aint that the truth Steve.

I agree with you JS on your statement about a good trial/test dog can easily become a top flight hunting dog.
 
#21 ·
So let me get this right:

If I train my dog to the best of my ability and want to see how that actually compares to what is the only determined standard by which to compare......I am stroking my ego?

I could care less how others view my training, handling and dog, but self satisfaction is important for the accomplishment trying to be achieved by me and my teammate. I have only to judge this by competing against the other team that are trying to be the best they can be.

I think some of you are confusing "ego" with "pride", and that is a big difference in my book.
 
#23 ·
I guess I come at this from a different perspective. I am far from running a MN but hope we can some day. For me it's the challenge, the focus, the dedication and discipline needed to train to a level more then needed for a competent hunting dog. I played competitive sports through college and beyond. I loved not only the competition but also work needed to compete at a high level. Now looking down the barrel of 60 I stopped putting on the pads and lacing up my skates decades ago but the mind and heart still wants the challenges. I love working and training my mutts and look to HT's as a test/challenge of me. So for me why not aspire to a higher level. I'm a hunter first but HT's also fill a desire, keeps me engage with my fur ball partners with the added hope of someday feeling the butterflies and adrenaline as I walk to the line at MN like I used feel a long long time ago before a big game. If this is ego then I'm good with it I guess and wish that felling for others.
 
#24 ·
So MN dogs don't hunt? I have 16 on my truck qualified for this year's master national and every one of them hunts....alot....In fact last year I had 2 dogs who were qualified but did not go because the MN fell during Louisiana's Early Teal Season. This year they will teal hunt til the end of September and then head west with me to California. In Louisiana....Our dogs hunt.....
 
#25 ·
Exactly Chuck! Well put. And I also concur with the other post that said some are confusing pride with ego. I could care less what others think of me and my dogs but that doesn't stop me from trying to make them the best I can and enjoying the sport. If that includes running the MN so be it. We obviouls run in different circles than the OP but I've not heard anyone I encounter on a regular basis at our HT, bragging about their dog in order to make themselves look good.
 
#27 ·
My dog, Tar, really cares about retrieving so whatever we do is good with him as long as he retrieves and gets a daily dose of it!:) Titles in any venue are for us and the families! Kinda feel good but nice to have added to his name. IMHO:)
 
#28 ·
If personal gratification is being equated with ego then running the MN is about ego, running on weekends is about ego, hunting is about ego.

The protestant ethic is the backbone of America's success. One of its philosophies is that if something is worth doing, it is worth doing well. We are achievement oriented. Is it ego when our children excel in sports or do well in college? The achievement of doing well at the MN or weekend tests or trials should be appreciated. Is it ego in field trials when there are four placements in a stake and 40 to 100 losers?

The people I hunt with are competitive. Opening day of dove season there is bragging rights for who got their limit earliest with the fewest shells. Pictures show up in everybody's email when one us shoots a deer, elk, big horn, etc. Is ego the motivation for their time in the field?

I started in the dog games after 30 years of hunting, entering my hunting dog in a NAHRA Intermediate. I enjoyed the intensified training with my dog, working with other people and getting the weekend ribbons. Now that we are doing trials, I do not think their is much ego invested in a box of green ribbons.

I do not understand why there is such animosity against those that are in the dog games for the games rather than for hunting. Where does this moral high ground originate?
 
#30 · (Edited)
Very nice post! What I said.

Ego is a good thing. Ego = self-esteem. Feeling good about yourself and your accomplishments. Why does it carry a negative connotation? It's a motivator that drives most of us to do our best.

"Ego" and "pride" are very closely related. Neither are "bad".

Don't confuse "ego" with "arrogance".

JS
 
#31 ·
My dogs love retrieving, any kind of retrieving. It brings me great joy to watch them as they go through training and participate in hunt tests: their body language and expression says it all. I don't hunt. We live in a place where duck and pheasant hunting is marginal. My husband hunts a little, but his job doesn't allow him to spend much time in the field. So we do hunt tests instead. Realistically, it's the only way our dogs are going to get to pick up birds. The competition, the camaraderie, the travel, the training, watching everyone's dogs at the test: love it all. It's fun earning ribbons and titles, but the real pleasure comes from a job well done and the sheer joy on the dogs' faces, doing what they were bred to do. If the only valid justification for participating in hunt tests is preparation for hunting, then a lot of us just egomaniacs, but it isn't going to stop me :)
 
#33 ·
I'm like you but get to do a little hunting every year with the dogs. Work still gets in the way of enjoying time in the field with the dogs either way but we love it all the more when we can. Whatever the motivation or rational for participating our dogs do it because its the essence of what they are, retrievers.

The MN event may be like going to a big football game, NFL or College game on the weekend. Those that are going don't mind the traffic and those who aren't can deal with it on a limited basis. However, having to contend with the same traffic pattern everyday is a big nuisance. That's what this MN thing has become for those of us who can't go or don't desire to go. We are being forced to endure the traffic all the time and its kinda unfair to those of us who don't want to or can't go. The congestion is very disruptive to workers, participants and everyone who is trying to participate in a normal way and why we need an alternate route so everyone can get where they want to go.

We all love the game and our individual circumstance dictate how we choose to play. This is not anti- MN, Pro vs Amateur, Limited stake vs open but its not possible getting there with the traffic conditions we have now. So far, I haven't seen the powers that be come up with any new or viable means to get where we all want to go so I hope they keep trying.

Jim Bevere
 
#32 ·
So the question I have- is the Master Nationals about the average guy/gal wanting a better retrieving hunting partner?
No, it starts out that way for 90% of the people I run the MN with but then you soon train beyond anything needed in a gun dog. I enjoy the training year around, being outdoors, meeting dog people from all over the country and trying to train the dog to the highest level I can. You seem to be pounding your chest that you are a hunter and the dog game is only for hunters. Hunting is a game I have enjoyed for over 50 years. I didn't know it was so special to be so ego driven over, just something I enjoy and have always done. As many others have said, your premise is incorrect and the point you are trying to make is baseless.

Your website says you are a gun dog trainer and guide. So if I follow the money, you hunt for money and train dogs to gun dog level for money but you can't make it at the MN level to make money so you hate those that run it......did I miss something?
 
#39 ·
Your website says you are a gun dog trainer and guide. So if I follow the money, you hunt for money and train dogs to gun dog level for money but you can't make it at the MN level to make money so you hate those that run it......did I miss something?
SamLab1 ??? The original post maybe needed a better title- I'll give you that! Ego's are good! I never said they were not. My post was suggested towards thoughs that are member of clubs who can not get their own dogs entered in AKC tests at Master level, nothing more - nothing less, that has been posted elsewhere on RTF. I personnaly know the OP and the pro trainer of that thread both GREAT folks. All the thread was is to get the guys/gals who are members of said clubs if they are complaining they can not get in that they have options, go to their club meetings and have their voice heard. Now for your due diligence and research on me- amazing when a guy doesnt hide behind an avatar/pen name. Now yes I am a guide, guiding allows me to be in the field multiple days a year and still providing an income and be with our multiple MH, QAA, SH, GMHR-1, MHR dogs. BTW I have dogs attain the honor of going to the MN, but the commitment and ROI to be gone for two weeks from both job and family does not outweigh those days in the field IMO. Someday it may, maybe when I have a truckload of my own dogs at that level rather than 2 or 3 and the grandkids can go with.
 
#34 ·
United we stand divided we fall....
i hate division between bow hunters vs rifle hunters,
fly fisherman vs worm dunkers,ff vs non ff, competition vs hunt dogs,etc...
You enjoy your dogs your way, I'll enjoy mine.
 
#35 ·
My dogs love to hunt. They also love to train & run tests/trials. When I was strictly a hunter, I hunted every weekend in duck & dove season. The rest of the year dog sat on the couch. A month before the season dog & I would get back into shape.

I still hunt almost every weekend of dove & duck season. Now at the end of the season, I train 5-6 days a week. My dogs are infinitely better & their season doesnt have a 9 month down time.

Are there hunt test dogs that never experience the thrill of a fully committed flock of ducks & competent shooting? Sure! But would you prefer the dog sit on the couch as a house pet? In my mind these dogs are bred as retrievers. They make great pets but are not complete without a job whether hunting or testing or obedience or agility. Off the couch & into the field is a good thing regardless!
 
#37 ·
So here's my problem.....

No problem with whatever reason you run AKC HT, HRC, NAHRA or any other flavor - ego, pride, personall satisfaction, challenge, better hunting companion etc, etc. Its all good. However I still hold onto the premise that the HT games were designed to help a hunter have a better companion in the field. Somewhere along the line HT titles became confused with betttering the breed(s) and indeed people were and are willing to pay more for titled pedigree puppies. As the sport has evolved, more and more non hunters have permeated the ranks. Certainly AKC, more and more in HRC. These people unconsciously or consciously are driving the design of tests, the standards and consequently the training. As a hunter I resent being obliged to accept a non hunter's valuation of the desirable qualities in my hunting buddies. He or she breeds her animals on the basis of their ability to pass tests as a priority, their ability to produce valuable progeny next with their suitability in the blind or the uplands a poor vanguard. The exact opposite of the original intent of hunt tests.

I know I am casting a broad net, but I am afraid if the general trend. I think the tests with 60 dogs and three handlers are merely a symptom of this trend.
 
#44 ·
I don't do it for the titles. My old girl would have easily a master level dog if I would have ever bothered running her. I was plenty content to let her pull my ducks and give me stupid looks when I missed a shot. With the new pup, I have decided it will be fun to see how high of a standard she can consistently meet. Assuming I can get her there, once she has her MH title, I will probably only do 1-2 tests a year as a benchmark to a standard I want to hold. If I ever decide to try to qualify her for the MN or run her there, it will be solely for the reason that I want to see my dog challenged to be the best she can be. If HT's ever turn in to anything but pure fun for me, I will go back to training and only hunting her. My dogs will always be primarily hunting partners, regardless of any other accolades they may earn. If I ever skip a weekend in the duck blind to run a HT, feel free to shoot me.
 
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