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Thread: Help me interpret this statement

  1. #11
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I think Lardy approves of repeating marks as long as you are teaching a Concept.
    Yes. like a cheating single.

    You can also make it a memory bird in a way that is simpler than throwing the entire triple. Put a longer gun as go bird. Run that. Don't make it real tight. Pick up that bird as single. Then shoot the check down.
    Throw a gimme from the line. Pick that up, Cue easy. Then send for short bird, with long gun visible.
    Just an additional step before running the entire triple.
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

  2. #12
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntinman View Post
    Some don't believe in repeating marks... Some do. To each his own. How are you going to teach a dog the concept if you can't repeat it?

    You teach the same Type/Concept of a mark in a different field....was a repeater when I was young until I learned the error of my ways....Now if I could just stay away from the same type of women
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  3. #13
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    I wonder how much land you need to never repeat a mark? My training grounds is 195 acres. After doing marks there for over a year I find myself repeating marks about every six weeks or so.
    Wayne Nutt
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  4. #14
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    To Repeat or Not To RepeatFrom Total Retriever Marking with Mike Lardy

    To Repeat or Not to Repeat
    There's no doubt that repetition is a basis for learning. The question is, "Does repeating failed marks help a dog learn about marking"
    In general I do not repeat failed marks. One basic reason for this is that I believe it contributes to going back to old falls-- a natural tendency that retrievers often revert to when they become uncertain.Repeating only contributes to the expectation that a bird can be found where you found one before.
    For example, suppose a dog fails a triple by going back to the old flyer fall when sent for a long retired gun and you handled him out of the flyer and to the long retired gun. Now, if you repeat the entire triple you are sending him back to the flyer where he does find a bird. So what does he learn? He certainly doesn't learn that he is never going to find a flyer in the same area twice!
    It is more productive to run a similar set-up in a new place rather than to repeat a failed mark. For example, in the above scenario, I might move over in the field and set up another test with a long retired gun. By setting up the same situation, but in a different place, and perhaps under slightly easier circumstances, I believe I will soon develop an understanding of the long retired gun concept. By not repeating, you will work harder to build marking concepts.
    I do repeat certain kinds of marks under specific circumstances:

    1. Any drill-like mark like a cheating single or other singles that are set up to teach a dog to hold a line in spite of a very strong factor.
    2. A failed secondary selection bird -- the tendency to miss these kinds of marks is so strong that any potential tendency to go back to an old fall on a short mark is worth it.
    3. Any unique mark that you might not have the luxury of finding the time or place to create a similar circumstance. For example, a bird thrown on to an island, a bird thrown across a hidden channel, or a bird thrown across a river with a current. Even under these circumstances I will repeat just a particular mark as a single.--- I do not run the entire test over.

    Some trainers do repeat a lot. For their dogs repeating is a concept itself! My experience is that when you repeat a test with a dog that you have generally not repeated with, the dog can get very confused and often repeats the failures of the first attempt!
    So, a failed attempt at a short bird that was to be retrieved second, would be something that Lardy would advocate repeating.
    Considering the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity". -Unknown

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Nutt View Post
    I wonder how much land you need to never repeat a mark? My training grounds is 195 acres. After doing marks there for over a year I find myself repeating marks about every six weeks or so.
    I don't know if that's strictly true, since scenting conditions, light, wind, sorts of vegetation that's coming up or dying off, etc. etc. will change dramatically in 6 weeks.

    When it comes to water, though... depending upon the part of the country you're in, there can be slim pickin's so to speak.

  6. #16
    Senior Member afdahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    I think Lardy approves of repeating marks as long as you are teaching a Concept.
    John and I talked with Mike about this once. Mike is (at least was at the time) of the "don't repeat marks" school, and John and I advocate repeating marks. Turns out our decision-making on when to repeat marks is almost exactly the same. For whatever reason, we describe it in language that seems opposed.

    It was an interesting lesson in communication.

    Amy Dahl

  7. #17
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    I have 2 points I'd like to make;

    1. For a dog to have success marking short birds, you have to train on them. I've witnessed a lot of people over the years that almost never threw a MEANINGFUL short mark for their dogs in daily training.

    2. If a dog can't do good work on a double with a short memory bird, I wouldn't set up an indented triple and throw the indent as a single to teach the concept.-Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  8. #18
    Senior Member BJGatley's Avatar
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    I find that running lots of singles teaches a concept. I also find that moving away from the area say 100 yards or so puts a different picture to the dog. I was a little bit bother about the "test around" scenario, but I am sure it meant teaching.

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