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Thread: bill hillman or mike lardy

  1. #41
    Member Captzig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Duck View Post
    That is the essence of how Hillmann is different. There isn't a "turning off of pressure". Bill would tell you that "pressure" is something used to get a dog to "DO" something. Bill is interested in conditioning a dog to "BE" a certain way. That is, an action without thought. Practice. Example is cutting a corner of water. Don't do it a couple times until the dog gets it right (or burn him for doing it wrong), but rather hundreds of times until it becomes who he is.

    Realize that most programs are derived from Pros that train a large number of dogs on a daily basis, and are built on a regimented, streamlined schedule, that typically prohibits truly "custom" training a dog. I realize good trainers are flexible and "train the dog they're training", but to a large extent, the dog has to fit the "program" or they wash out. They can not repeat and practice things to the extent an individual can. They can't stand and hand throw 25 bumpers across a corner of water, then do 15 walking singles, then run a walkout blind, then work on steadiness, and then go run an actual setup all by yourself.....then etc..... That is what I like about the way Bill trains....it's how I CAN train. But it's important to understand the philosophy, in that, the philosophy is what will develop the relationship with your dog, that will in turn allow you to make the most of this way of training.
    I was kinda thinking the same thing but couldn't have said it better than Mountain Duck, excellent post!

  2. #42
    Senior Member RobinZClark's Avatar
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    According to Bill's philosophy it is not necessary to teach a dog how to turn off pressure? It is instead necessary to create good habits? That idea seems to turn FF on its ear. Pun intended.

    I can easily teach a dog to retrieve without teaching them how to turn off pressure....so there is no point to teaching them to turn off pressure? Is that what you are saying?

  3. #43
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    I think a lot of folks would disagree with you on this. I would argue that it is the seasoned pro's experience with many dogs that allows him/her to anticipate and instantaneously react to whatever a given dog does and thus tailor the program to each dog on the fly.

    I also think this is the hardest thing about learning how to FF dogs without doing a bunch of them under the watchful eye of someone who has already done a bunch of them. There are so many varied reactions that you have to be ready to respond to with perfect timing that it is very hard to get it right the first few times through. Especially if you are having to stop and think about it because you are inexperienced like me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Duck View Post
    Realize that most programs are derived from Pros that train a large number of dogs on a daily basis, and are built on a regimented, streamlined schedule, that typically prohibits truly "custom" training a dog. I realize good trainers are flexible and "train the dog they're training", but to a large extent, the dog has to fit the "program" or they wash out. They can not repeat and practice things to the extent an individual can. They can't stand and hand throw 25 bumpers across a corner of water, then do 15 walking singles, then run a walkout blind, then work on steadiness, and then go run an actual setup all by yourself.....then etc..... That is what I like about the way Bill trains....it's how I CAN train. But it's important to understand the philosophy, in that, the philosophy is what will develop the relationship with your dog, that will in turn allow you to make the most of this way of training.
    Steve Wyatt

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  4. #44
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke T View Post
    I haven't seen the karst or hilman but have been looking to buy some and wondered how the farmer/aycock video is in comparison to these 2? Thanks
    If you really want to learn how to FF a dog, and aren't just looking to FF your dog, the Farmer/Aycock Basics and Force Fetch DVD's are the very best of all of the training videos that currently exist.

    They do an excellent job of emphasizing the primary objectives of basics and FF.

    But, you still can't learn how to FF a dog simply by watching a video.
    Every dog is an individual.

    They are all unique. Like snowflakes.
    Considering the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity". -Unknown

  5. #45
    Senior Member Marissa E.'s Avatar
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    Ok, not to hijack this thread but...

    My pup is now 6 months old. My last dog I sent away for FF, T, Swimby and that stuff. I want to do it myself this time. I have since also seen a few Pros work on FF during individual sessions but not yet seen a dog FF'd start to finish.

    I have the Lardy DVDs (and Hillman Fetch and both the Farmer/Aycock DVDs lol) but I am still feeling a bit overwhelmed even thinking about FF. I have not started the process at all but my pup shows plenty of desire and will bring back bumper after bumper on land and in water... I know she is ready to begin more formal work.

    If I go with a Pro to help me ( I have a good one in mind that is about an hour away) what type of commitment am I looking at? Traveling with my dog to Pros everyday, every other day, once a week? I want to learn how to do it and I really would like to avoid leaving my dog with a Pro again...

    Thanks
    Last edited by Marissa E.; 06-27-2014 at 05:07 PM.

    Marissa Everett

    Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

  6. #46
    Senior Member copterdoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marissa E. View Post
    ....If I go with a Pro to help me ( I have a good one in mind that is about an hour away) what type of commitment am I looking at? Traveling with my dog to Pros everyday, every other day, once a week? I want to learn how to do it and I really would like to avoid leaving my dog with a Pro again......
    If you trust the Pro, then trust the Pro. Ask them what they think.

    They aren't all looking to drain your wallet.

    If you have a real desire to learn, and have a real hunger for knowledge, you can easily find an instructor that is more than willing to mentor you.

    It's the folks that want a Pro to give them a fish, vs teaching them how to fish, that get the cold shoulder.
    Considering the fact that God limited the intelligence of man, it seems unfair that he did not also limit his stupidity". -Unknown

  7. #47
    Senior Member polmaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copterdoc View Post
    If you trust the Pro, then trust the Pro. Ask them what they think.

    They aren't all looking to drain your wallet.

    If you have a real desire to learn, and have a real hunger for knowledge, you can easily find an instructor that is more than willing to mentor you.

    It's the folks that want a Pro to give them a fish, vs teaching them how to fish, that get the cold shoulder.
    It's about the best post I've seen and the only one I've understood from you
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Mountain Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RookieTrainer View Post
    I think a lot of folks would disagree with you on this. I would argue that it is the seasoned pro's experience with many dogs that allows him/her to anticipate and instantaneously react to whatever a given dog does and thus tailor the program to each dog on the fly.
    Steve, I believe you have misunderstood the point I was trying to make. To clarify, I'm not questioning the "ability" of a Pro to read a dog and "instantaneously" react to what the dog is doing. As it relates to Lardy, his record and program certainly have been time proven, and I'm not foolish enough to believe I have any business trying to critique Mike Lardy, or any number of top Pros.

    My point is that a Pro has a certain number (typically large) of dogs to train daily. This requires a structured, regimented approach to ensure that all dogs get trained for the day. The training has to be somewhat homogeneous, as there simply isn't enough daylight to do exactly what every dog needs. It's not necessarily a matter of a "well timed correction", but possibly a matter of "should the dog even be doing this?" Now, obviously the cream rises to the top, and dogs go on to have 100's of AA points and end up in the HOF, but a certain number that don't fit the "program" wash. Not to say they would make it elsewhere, but there are certainly stories of dogs that have gone on to have success once given a more "one-on-one" type of training.

    Most modern training programs are adapted from the regimented type atmosphere I described above. You see terms like "flowchart" "start formal obedience", force fetch, walking fetch, stick fetch, force to pile........... It's born from the need to have a structured day to day plan to fit a number of dogs, in a way that most of them will progress. It attempts to set benchmarks, and finite start/finishes, in a somewhat "paint by numbers" approach. For many people, this is great way to train. Many have used these to advance dogs to the highest levels.

    Hillmann's approach is different. It's an alternative. It's one dog that you are training. It's not bound by the need to train 25 dogs today. Just the one. It's not a "I have a dozen 6 month old dogs that need to learn to sit, so I'm going to walk around in circles for ten minutes a day for two weeks with a lead and heeling stick until I get compliance", but rather "I have a 10 week old puppy that has a multitude of things he needs to learn in his lifetime." "We're going for a walk in the morning, and we're going to start chipping away at this Masterpiece I'm going to create." I personally like that approach to dog training.
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  9. #49
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMA View Post
    Teaching the fetch part seems to be easy enough. Teaching a dog how to understand and turn off various forms of pressure is to me the actual lesson. Does anyone have feedback on if the Hillman method in the video would address this. Always interested in additional approaches and recommendations on videos and books.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Duck View Post
    That is the essence of how Hillmann is different. There isn't a "turning off of pressure". Bill would tell you that "pressure" is something used to get a dog to "DO" something. Bill is interested in conditioning a dog to "BE" a certain way. That is, an action without thought. Practice. Example is cutting a corner of water. Don't do it a couple times until the dog gets it right (or burn him for doing it wrong), but rather hundreds of times until it becomes who he is.

    Realize that most programs are derived from Pros that train a large number of dogs on a daily basis, and are built on a regimented, streamlined schedule, that typically prohibits truly "custom" training a dog. I realize good trainers are flexible and "train the dog they're training", but to a large extent, the dog has to fit the "program" or they wash out. They can not repeat and practice things to the extent an individual can. They can't stand and hand throw 25 bumpers across a corner of water, then do 15 walking singles, then run a walkout blind, then work on steadiness, and then go run an actual setup all by yourself.....then etc..... That is what I like about the way Bill trains....it's how I CAN train. But it's important to understand the philosophy, in that, the philosophy is what will develop the relationship with your dog, that will in turn allow you to make the most of this way of training.
    Eric correctly points out a major difference in philosophy. The program is designed entirely around conditioned reinforcement of success. The ecollar is a conditioned reinforcer and applied positively, at a low intensity 'nick', in operant terms.

    If I understand this idea of "turning off pressure", you are talking about escape/avoidance training techniques. I do believe that this plays a role in the early process of conditioning the ecollar to be a positive reinforcer, through the early work with leash pressure. Again, this is applied at a very low level of intensity and very quickly evolves into high repetition, positive reinforcement of a behavior that the dog is doing correctly.

    This, in addition to the reinforced practice of success that Eric explained so well, produces a dog that has a very clear understanding of the concept of indirect pressure. So, Hillmann's Fundamentals program utilizes a specific communication sequence, using indirect pressure, to teach the concepts involved in more advanced work. A key characteristic of this use of indirect pressure, is that the dog has been conditioned to understand and respond to very low intensity 'nicks' at the distances required for retriever work.

    I see this as a clear example where the mechanics/method fits the philosophy. Hillmann's Fetch Command method of force fetch is very different from traditional methods. However, it is complete in the fulfillment of his system (philosophy) with regard to the use of pressure in communicating and conditioning. The trainer has all the tools needed and the dog has all the understanding needed.

    So, when teaching basic obedience skills, pressure as punishment for corrections is not an integral part of the process. Later, during the teaching of Fundamentals of more advanced retriever work, the dog has a clear understanding of a communication sequence involving indirect pressure. Every aspect of the ecollar conditioning process incorporates an attitude of excitement, fun, happiness, etc so that the use of ecollar pressure does not diminish the attitude of the dog. This work can be accomplished while simultaneously building drive, desire and focus.

    Jim

  10. #50
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    It's about the best post I've seen and the only one I've understood from you
    I'm the opposite,,,I find most of what he says quite insightful and understand what he is trying to get across in depth,,,
    funny how that works
    Pete
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    I can of my own self do nothing ,as I hear , I judge,,and my judgement is just, because I seek not my own will,,but the will of the father which hath sent me
    John 7:16 -- Jesus answered them and said my doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
    mark 16:9 -- So then after the lord had spoken unto them,he was received up in heaven, and sat on the right hand of God
    I Tim. 2:5 --For there is one God and one mediator between God and man ,, the man Christ Jesus

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