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isolate steadyness or just part of training quality marks?

3K views 19 replies 14 participants last post by  Ted Shih 
#1 ·
I was wondering if you guys taught steadiness while working on marks as part of your strict standards, or if you isolated the concept with some sort of drill?
 
#2 ·
Teach in the yard. Standard is zero movement. Then take that standard to the field.

The trap is not upholding standards when group training because you are "wasting time". Dog learned steadiness is required in the yard but not in the field. Don't ask how I know;-)
 
#3 ·
I feel "steadiness" is a continuation of "sit", and teach it as thus. Our pups are taught the "sit" command at a very young age (meaning "sit" means "sit") using food and treats. This transfers easily into the field if done correctly. They have a basic understanding of what we term "steadiness", as they know they will not be allowed their reward (be it a treat or a bumper) if they fail to remain seated until released. They're gradually introduced to increasing distractions while they sit, such as bumpers pitched around them or another dog heeled nearby. By the time we're starting actual marking drills in the field, steadiness has been ingrained.

I currently have two seven-month old littermates doing basic marking drills. This morning, I ran both on stand-alones in the hayfield and only had one attempt to break. She was placed back at the original sitting position and I picked up the mark. We then did some heel and sit work before going back to stand-alones with no further issue.
 
#5 ·
^This. So many things are tens times easier if you have a good sit on a dog. I think the same holds true for heel as well.

To answer your question though, in my experience steadiness is or needs to be taught and needs to be kept as a strict standard in the yard, while running marks, while trianing with a group, during a test, while hunting etc. My dog is steady all day long in the yard and during marks but breaks down sometimes when training with a group and when the feather start flying. As a result of this during hunting in the beginning of the season I make sure to hunt with a group of good shooters that wya I can put my gun down and do some steadiness work with the pup in a real hunting situation. This helps send the message that the standard of steadiness is the same there as in the yard.
 
#4 ·
Isolated yard drill,
 
#6 ·
With a young dog I would never correct them too hard at the line. I use a training tab at first and if they move I give them a little tug and say SIT even after yard work for a little while until they get it. If it is really bad, I will take them back to the yard and do a steadiness drill (have someone through multiple marks from abut 25 yards. I have a 10 foot rope in case they really break and correct the dog with a heeling stick. After awhile when I taking they understand what is expected then I will let go of the training tab and use the stick again. If they creep then I take them off the line.
 
#8 ·
Ok my view: there are 3 types of retrievers
Them that have broke, them about to break and those you dont want!

Every mark they dont break is one closer to the one they will!
It never happens at a good time

A lot of folks steady a dog to soon and they are all different.
Hold a high standard and expect them to do as taught

If they do break at an event : as an accomplished trainer once said
" go ahead and dont give those B#%%,€ 's a chance to judge you!
My view
Dk
 
#9 ·
I was told about the same thing last weekend after my dog that I had 8/10 confidence
Going into test Would sit. He said there's two types dogs that are broke, and dogs that will break. Which I feel is pretty decent advice. And I do think now that I prob shouldn't have beenpushing my 6& 1/2 month old pup and expecting her to run in a hunter level NAHRA test. But its too late and iI didn't get her stopped before she got the go bird. I'm a beleaver in always keeping a high standard. And if they flinch no bird back to the holding blind. I'm about done with walking fetch and will be collar conditioning soon. But my real question was aimed at getting some new ideas on small drill to reinforce steadyness not as a command but as a dissaplend(sp)
 
#10 ·
Post 9 - 6 1/2 months is pretty young so be careful

There is a steadying drill that we use but remember we are amateurs and not even close to accomplished trainers

Sit the dog in front of you and your 10' or so away, after you have her attention toss the bumper over your shoulder, when pup stays step out of the way and release Increase the distance and make noise as pup progresses.
Lengthen your throws and increase your noise as pup progresses. Work toward standing in front of pup with a toss sideways. Use a small mat for a locator, tolerance should stay on the mat
No more fun bumpers till this lesson of steady is learned.
Have fun and keep your lessons short. Pup is just a baby

All pups/people are different and as an example we are just steadying an 17 month old rocket ship.
Good luck and have fun
Dk
 
#11 ·
Dave,

That is very close to Hillmann's Traffic Cop method which I use on all of my young dogs now. I believe it is the best way to instill the 'sit' command.

The only difference is that he mixes happy bumpers with the rigid obedience letting them have a 'recess' if you will. It teaches them to 'turn it on' and immediately be able to 'turn it off'. That is Bill's 'philosophy' for the day.

One more thought.......just my thinking though.......if your dog is not steady, you don't need to be working on quality marks, you need to be working on sit like Dave mentioned until he is. That is steady to an easy hand thrown bumper in the yard, then up the excitement gradually until you finally have a gun station, bird thrower and noise from the gun station. Anything less is asking for trouble!
 
#13 · (Edited)
She's ahead of a lot of 6mo olds, but its cause we put the time in. Not trying to say she's specisl. I was able to run her as JH test dog in our akc test when she was 5 months. She would have got a pass for sure, tuff test to for a jr. Live water flyer straight out the gate on pond with alot of grass clumps and 6 outa 14 dogs didn't pick up first mark. She knows sit. We've shot live flyers on water and with in 40 yards of her on land and she sat like a champ. I did the sit before she eats thing since the day she got home, and door ways. Few days ago we had few live chucker left from NAHRA test so three of us went and shot em outa box launcher and I was able to get a good whistle just second before launch and she stayed steady, bird shot, hit ground and I released her on count of two. :D Today as she does 80% of the time she ran from same line as the big dogs(on land, water iI usually run where I need to so not to create cheating habits) and she rocked the eraser double/ memory mark under go bird arc concept we were teaching. When dogs with master passes under them were checking up and slowing down she didn't even flinch. She was as steady as one could ask; were just getting to walking fetch so e collar is on her just for sake of her wearing it, transmitters prob dead. And I was able to heal/here her a few degrees each time to watch next mark(I had my healing stick with me as always but she gave no reason for me to use it. But I train in a group multiple times a week, but I can't seem to get her jacked up as much as she was test mourning. I knew it as soon as we left the truck headed to first holding blind. Is the answer once I get through collar cond. Naturally with high standards it'll clean its self up? I was more or less looking to see if there was a drill I could be doing to help instill the fact her ass moves when i let her. Until we progress through cc. I'm looking to make sure I'm doing everything on my end. To make everything go as easy and smoothly as possible. Thanks for all the input keep it coming!

Thanks Nick
 
#14 ·
The collar is only an extension of your lead line and heeling stick. No need to get pup through CC before teaching steady and "sit means sit." In fact pup should have those basics down pat before introducing collar corrections. Basic obedience.
 
#15 ·
Well she ran 4 sets of doubles this mourning with gunners calling and blank guns. Didn't even act like she was tempted too. Then this evening we ran three double set ups but first one I ran as singles. Which were winger thrown. And was pleased with the line manners all around. So I think not finishing up walking fetch and moving right into cc , would be kinda wasting time. I need that tool to get started on cheating singles. The day she broke she was jacked up as soon as I got her from box and put lead on. I tried taking as much time as I could getting to the line. But she was basically pulling me. Which is out of norm as well. I can let her out of kennel at lunch and walk her off lead down the street to a lil lot and she's usually pretty wound but she'll heal all the way there. Could it be that the maturity is just not all the way there yet and circumstances got to her. Cause I can't seem to get her near as jacked up as that day.
 
#16 · (Edited)
If a dog cannot sit still how can it mark. Sure perhaps the dog can get a general idea, but if it not steady how can it pinpoint, what happends when you start throwing in multiples, factors, what if a car is crossing a road, or something else etc. A dog should be steady until it's sent, reguardless of what else is going on. Thus Steadiness for me is an alway situation, if a pup is too young to be corrected or your looking for something else out of the training, the dog wears a tab, to ensure he doesn't leave before he's supposed to. IF he's older he's expected to remeber the mark after being corrected. A dog can be expected to wait, making a puppy wait develop self-control. There's nothing wrong with self-control, and making a dog take the time to actually think, about what they're doing; it helps develop memory, helps them to figure situations, and ensures you have control, should you need to take over. Give me a thinking dog over a run-away but that could just be my preference. Still with most dogs it's not if they are going to break but when, training is different than testing-trialing, good standards during training helps you maintain control, in other situations; and maybe they might at least feel a tad guilty when they break, on the last flyer in the last series of a test ;)
 
#17 ·
Agree 100% let alone the biggest reason of all to be steady; Safety. A dog not where he was told to be when shots called is bad news...... don't ask. I agree with 90% of what has been said with out it don't move on, you have nothing, standard, and prob the hardest consistency!
This dog well on her way. She broke once in a test I shouldn't have had her in, if she sat she would have rocked the test. Maturity wise she was not ready. And being a test I was not able to apply a proper correction. That ones on me! I guess the reason I started the thread is I was looking for a way to really reinforce steadyness with out having to try and create situations where the need for a correction is likely. Because she's really not an unsteady dog. And I wanna be damn sure it stays that way. I'm excited to watch this pup become a dog and to where and what new experiences she's gonna drag me into. Gotta love the ride! Thanks everyone and hope all ur dogs never have an unsteady moment. But they will and that's the game. Good luck all the rest of the summer!!!
 
#18 ·
I go through stages as my pup ages into a dog. Very young pup 7 weeks to 4-5 months, I keep the lessons separate, sitting, heeling, post office are just short fun lessons. At some point I have a buddy throw marks, starting short on cut lawn, then extending as the pups ability allows. I hold the small puppy in front of me, me kneeling with both hands holding the pup up and facing the throw, then release as soon as the bumper hits the ground. As the pup grows larger, I switch to having the pups sit at my side, but holding on to a short lead attached to the collar. As we proceed through basics and after collar conditioning I put it all together by holding the dog to a high standard of steadiness off lead.
 
#20 ·
Depends on dog. If dog is high energy and I think needs control, I would work on obedience. If dog is not so excited about retrieving, then I would back off on obedience and start working on building the excitement for the retrieve.
 
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