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Excerpt from Hillman/Lardy thread about FF

3K views 17 replies 13 participants last post by  DL 
#1 ·
Mountain duck said:

That is the essence of how Hillmann is different. There isn't a "turning off of pressure". Bill would tell you that "pressure" is something used to get a dog to "DO" something. Bill is interested in conditioning a dog to "BE" a certain way. That is, an action without thought. Practice. Example is cutting a corner of water. Don't do it a couple times until the dog gets it right (or burn him for doing it wrong), but rather hundreds of times until it becomes who he is.

Realize that most programs are derived from Pros that train a large number of dogs on a daily basis, and are built on a regimented, streamlined schedule, that typically prohibits truly "custom" training a dog. I realize good trainers are flexible and "train the dog they're training", but to a large extent, the dog has to fit the "program" or they wash out. They can not repeat and practice things to the extent an individual can. They can't stand and hand throw 25 bumpers across a corner of water, then do 15 walking singles, then run a walkout blind, then work on steadiness, and then go run an actual setup all by yourself.....then etc..... That is what I like about the way Bill trains....it's how I CAN train. But it's important to understand the philosophy, in that, the philosophy is what will develop the relationship with your dog, that will in turn allow you to make the most of this way of training.
Can people who are experienced in running field trials speak to the necessity of teaching a dog to "turn off pressure". Thank you!
 
#2 ·
I don't know that it's about turning off pressure. It's about getting a stable response to the amount of pressure needed to change behavior. For example, a mark has a small piece of water en route to the mark and your dog makes an obvious move to go around the water. The Rex Carr indirect method of pressure is to stop the dog, apply pressure and then show the dog what you want by handling or recalling. You don't want the dog moving off their sit or shutting down. You could apply low pressure so the dog had little or no reaction, but then, the correction wouldn't be aversive and you're wasting your time and nagging the dog.
 
#12 ·
The best example of indirect pressure is when you take little Johnny to the store that he usually reaches and grabs everything of the shelf. On the way there he was raising Cain the whole way there. When you park the car, you get out and bust his tail. When you go into the store he acts like an angel and doesn't grab a thing.

Pressure was applied for acting up in the car, but corrected the behavior of grabbing things from the shelf.
 
#5 · (Edited)
You're going to want to read this and then this if you want to understand the theory behind how we reinforce the command "fetch" which is then built into "back".

In the case of all training programs regardless of author, the IDEA is to do enough reinforced repetitions of a given behavior that the dog generalizes that behavior regardless of environment or distraction level. We are trying to make the dog "reliable" in all situations. That is, it will do as commanded regardless of distraction.

Since going when sent and delivering to hand are not negotiable in retriever games (you (and your dog) fail on the first infraction if your dog refuses to do either), we seek to create reliability through negative reinforcement (read the first two links to understand what that is).

This task is easy to explain, but difficult to achieve due to a dog's unique "picture taking" ability, best explained by reading "My Life in Pictures" authored by Temple Grandin.

Back and fetch/hold can be made very reliable but things like cutting corners of ponds are often very challenging due to the different "look" each location we compete in may have.
 
#6 · (Edited)
In the context of FF and other physical correction such as collar stim, heeling stick, etc., "pressure" is another term for "physical punishment". There are many ways a dog can react when you apply a physical correction. Of course, what you want is for them to react by following the command they just violated, but unless you have conditioned them properly, they may instead "jump and scream", "lay down and shake", bolt and run, other panic behaviors or even shut down completely.

All these reactions are traumatic and counterproductive. Also unnecessary, if properly conditioned to what your correction means. That begins with early collar conditioning at low levels in a teaching setting. Subsequently, the ear pinch in FF is an important component of that conditioning.

"Turning off the pressure" means "comply, and the pressure stops ... other avoidance behavior will do no good".

JS
 
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#14 ·
A good pro would not do this because it is a waste of time not because he/she has too many dogs on the truck. Throwing 25 bumpers across the same corner is not how dogs generalize a behavior.
Who said you were going to cut one corner of water and quit after the first day? :confused: What if on Monday you practiced cutting a simple corner of water with a hand thrown bumper. Then on Tuesday, you came back to see if pup remembered his lesson. Maybe you add a new wrinkle such as running it as a memory bird. Then on Wednesday you practice another corner. Then perhaps on Thursday you want to incorporate a re-entry. Maybe you'll work on hand thrown down the shore marks on Friday. Then next week you do it all again, expanding as you go. At the end of two weeks, your dog has run 200+ cheating marks on various pieces of water. He's run them as memory birds, he's had re-entries, and he's starting to understand he has to swim it out on a bird down the shore. And you've done it with nothing more than a couple bumpers, yourself, and your dog. Now on Saturday you get to meet with your buddies and finally do some "serious" training. Reckon that pup will have a fairly good start to "generalizing" being honest in the water, or did you just waste your time waiting on a training day?

My posts about Hillmann's way of training are not, nor have they ever been intended to be "anti-Lardy" or "anti" anything. The de-cheating section in TRM is a phenomenal look at two of the best trainers in the country demonstrating how they de-cheat a dog. But for me personally, I can't run setups like that more than 2-3 times a month. It's hard to make much progress like that. But I can do what I described above, which allows me to make the most of my opportunities when I have throwers. I personally find immense value in learning new ways to train that allows me to progress my dog with the resources I have available. Others may not.
 
#10 ·
Throwing one bumper across 25 different corners might work better. If that's the way you choose to do it.

JS
 
#13 ·
I would like to hear before the anti Lardy folks run to announce "I don't follow Lardy watch me".
 
#16 ·
I've got a question from the second disk of the revised puppy DVD. If I ask a really young puppy to hold on the return of a tossed bumper when he returns to me and I have him sit before I take the bumper, does the puppy get to stand up after I take the bumper before it is released from the sit? I know it depends. I'm asking what it depends on.
 
#17 ·
I've got a question from the second disk of the revised puppy DVD. If I ask a really young puppy to hold on the return of a tossed bumper when he returns to me and I have him sit before I take the bumper, does the puppy get to stand up after I take the bumper before it is released from the sit? I know it depends. I'm asking what it depends on.
Keep in mind that it might be a good idea to start a new thread when you go off topic. I know this thread is a little frayed already ...

Hillmann begins teaching sit right from the beginning. And right from the beginning, the sit lesson includes the concept to remain sitting until released. No self release. I can't think of a single situation where "it depends".

At the beginning, standards for the sit position and focus are lower. The duration is only a few seconds and the trainer may not be more than an inch away, but the "sit" still ends with some sort of release from the trainer. I think Bill typically praises with voice and touch and then says "let's go."

Standards progress with regard to response, posture and focus. Distance, duration and distraction are gradually increased (not simultaneously). The communication develops, verbally and non-verbally, to include several ways to release the pup from the sit. Always at the discretion of the trainer; never at the discretion of the pup.

Your question also indicates that you are linking several trained skills into a complex linked sequence. Be careful about doing this too soon.

  • At this early stage, timing of praise is extremely important in reinforcing the pup's ever-increasing standard of performance of each skill. When you combine several skills together into a sequence, it is difficult to properly time the delivery of praise to the specific behavior, while still maintaining the continuity or flow in the execution of the sequence of skills.
  • What if, in a sequence of skills, the pup performs one skill at a superb level and then fails miserably at the next skill in the sequence? You are faced with rewarding the pup for the superb performance of one skill or correcting the pup for the failure of the other skill. The pup will probably interpret your reaction as either reinforcement of both performances or punishment of both performances. Either way, a step backwards.
  • What normally ends up happening, is handlers focus on the completion of the full sequence of linked skills. The dog fails and is corrected if the sequence isn't completed or the dogs succeeds and is praised if the sequence is completed. The individual component skills are melded together and objective of developing each individual skill to the highest standard of performance is lost. This is when we begin training and developing mediocrity.

Keep the training session dynamic, working on many skills and concepts in each session as Hillmann advocates. Just separate each "mini-lesson" so that both you and the pup can focus on clear communication and development of each skill to a high standard. Use praise and excitement to separate the lessons so that the pups attitude is kept up. When skills are developed individually to a high standard of execution and reliability, then you can begin to link them into a sequence, where the focus can be given to the quality of the link itself.

Jim
 
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