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Thread: New vocabulary word...

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blake_mhoona View Post
    well let me ask you this...is my description of momentum casting correct? giving the left angle back (whether its right or wrong for your/my dog) expecting him to fade with the wind towards the blind.

    i just want to know whether or not i have my concepts correct. literal if taken will put right at the bird. momentum is taking into account factors/your dog and giving cast.

    Let's start with literal casting. Imagine that you are standing at six o'clock on a watch. Your dog is in the center of the watch where the hour and minute hands meet. Imagine further that the bird is at 10 o'clock on the watch. The literal cast would be where your arm is at 10 o'clock - or a slight angle back cast. That is, if the dog responds perfectly to the literal cast and carries that cast without deviation, the dog would line directly to the bird upon taking the cast.

    I disagree with the description that you - and others - have given for a momentum. I don't think anyone is right or wrong. It is just what the term means to each of us.

    To me, a momentum cast is simply any cast that is intended to change a dog's momentum. It could be a cast to drive a dog out of a spot. It could be a cast to break a dog out of yo-yo. I guess you could say that the cast is intended to obtain progress to the blind - but that seems a bit narrow to me. Again, to me, a momentum cast is a cast that is intended to change a dog's momentum. To me, the term does not imply precision.

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  2. #22
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1tulip View Post
    Based upon the responses, I think I understand literal, momentum and survival (good description) casts. But let me tell you the context in which the word came up and confused me. Retrievers Online 2012 issue 3, "10 Best Stand Alones to Improve Marking, Focus, Skills and Experiences" So it's about introducing some complexities like cover strips, angling ditches and roads, hay bales and stuff.

    You can do a little handling as the dog is coming at the mark, not by stopping and casting but by simply giving literal casting

    Here the handler is not on the line managing the dog. It sounds to me that Voigt is basically saying the handler (who doubles as the "gunner" in Stand Alones) can pretty much point to the fall (you know what I mean... not point really but stick out your arms appropriately) if the dog needs a hint as he emerges from the ditch or cover or whatever.

    Based on your replies, that's how I'm interpreting this statement. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

    Dennis is describing how a gunner (you if a stand alone - or someone else if there are multiple people training) can help a dog that looks disoriented. This is different than handling a dog as we typically use the term, which involves stopping the dog before casting.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Imagine a hard water blind. Hard wind blowing left to right - towards dirt. Dog is on tall but thin point. If the dog goes off the point and remains precisely on line it is out of sight for 5 seconds. All of the dogs that have gone out of sight reappear on the right shoreline, where they refuse to go back in the water and are therefore, out of the field trial. Only a handful of the dogs whose handlers gave an left over cast off the point, were able to make it to the end of the blind.

    You and your dog are up.

    Your dog is on the point.

    If you give a straight left back - and your dog takes it and holds it - the dog will be directly on line to the bird, but out of sight for a few critical seconds. This is - as Ed said - the literal cast. And in this scenario, the last cast you want to give.

    If you give a left over, and your dog takes it and gets in the water, you can see if the dog is fading with the wind to the shoreline and take responsive measures. This is the survival cast.
    C.J. "Joe" Schomer had an appropriate name for Handlers who gave a 'back cast'
    off that type of point ... "RIVER BOAT GAMBLERS".

    W. D. Connor

  4. #24
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    a momentum cast is a cast that is intended to change a dog's momentum. To me, the term does not imply precision.
    And as we have previously stated and stated and stated literal casting is about precision and how could this thread have lasted beyond 3 or 4 posts?

  5. #25
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    And as we have previously stated and stated and stated literal casting is about precision and how could this thread have lasted beyond 3 or 4 posts?



    I'm with Ed on this. He accurately defined it in Post 2!
    By definition and in reality it CAN be any cast -over-even come in but usually it is accurate angles back

    Re the cloudy Momentum Casts. This too has a long history and definition. I honour the originators of terms, drills and procedures. Please don't invent your own definition and impression and muddy the waters! Rex Carr protégée Jim Kappes defined momentum casts in his now aged and rare VHS TAPE -Kappes and Curtis Training

    Momentum casts are those that encourage momentum towards the blind. They are helpful and exaggerated. They are primarily used with younger dogs such as those in Transition. They keep u out of trouble but they are training casts not trialing casts. They are not designed to change a dogs momentum but rather encourage it. An over off a point at a trial might look like a momentum cast but that is just a technique to counter a dig back. It is not the original and traditional use of a momentum cast.

    Lets honour those that have developed our methods!

    From the peanut gallery in northern Ontario prepping for the Canadian National Amateur in a few days.

    PS Happy Fourth!
    Dennis

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    Hey Ted, ED, and Ev,
    does anyone ever do the both arms so up they touch your ears hard voice "Back" anymore? The "Superman" cast? First time I seen it I asked what direction the handler expected the dog to spin. And the reply was "I don't care, I just want um to dig straight back, HARD!"
    is it a thing of the past?
    You guys have seen it yes??
    Ken, I used that cast in desperation in a trial a couple of years ago when I couldn't get a "hard back". Still didn't get it & I was gone......but I did get a laugh or two.
    David Didier, GA

  7. #27
    Senior Member EdA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granddaddy View Post
    Ken, I used that cast in desperation in a trial a couple of years ago when I couldn't get a "hard back". Still didn't get it & I was gone......but I did get a laugh or two.
    I think that at one point Lanse may have experimented with the two handed back cast as well as a straight up cast with one arm and a step in the opposite direction.

  8. #28
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdA View Post
    I think that at one point Lanse may have experimented with the two handed back cast as well as a straight up cast with one arm and a step in the opposite direction.
    You mean the one where he looks like the guy on the tarmac directing the incoming airliner to the correct ramp at DFW

    and the other one looks like this sequence




    to be followed by this

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    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  9. #29
    Senior Member gdgnyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Bora View Post
    Hey Ted, ED, and Ev,
    does anyone ever do the both arms so up they touch your ears hard voice "Back" anymore? The "Superman" cast? First time I seen it I asked what direction the handler expected the dog to spin. And the reply was "I don't care, I just want um to dig straight back, HARD!"
    is it a thing of the past?
    You guys have seen it yes??
    Someone in our group had used it but dropped it after receiving several offers of advice to do so.
    "I love the rod and gun and where they take me."

    "Do not judge a man until you have walked two moons in his moccasins."

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