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The use of the hand on the send

7K views 42 replies 27 participants last post by  gdgnyc 
#1 ·
I'm certain it's been discussed before but my search or my key words or something wasn't too successful. I'd appreciate it if anyone can point me in the right direction, or, alternatively, start a discussion here.

Here's the little bit that I know from a few mentions I've run across in other sources. It emphasizes a line. It is used to encourage the dog to drive deep and (consequently) it isn't used on a check down bird and it's a rhythm/timing thing on the release for the last bird down.

Is that it, or is there more to it?
 
#3 · (Edited)
I personally use the hand cue as a confidence builder. Yes, in a definition it emphasizes a line, but for my uses, I primarily emphasize "Hey, there's a bird in this direction". Let's use blinds as an example... I line my dogs and let them develop a point of reference. If they lock in on a line that I'm satisfied with, I'll send them. If not I'll cue them a little with my hand til they focus on a good line. Same goes with marks. If they are locked on a mark and I can tell by their body language they have a good mark I'll send them. If not, I'll give them a quick hand cue. So generally speaking the go-bird or last bird down typically doesn't require a cue. If they return with the go bird and set up and lock on to the memory bird I'll send them without the hand cue. If they don't setup and are looking in the immediate area of fall, but not a locked-on body language I'll give a quick hand cue. It's generally a degree or two off where they are looking unless they just bomb the mark in which I handle it like a blind.

So, if my dog was to run a perfect series (in my eyes) theoretically I wouldn't use the hand cue.
 
#5 ·
I use hand after I say GOOD and dog is locked on the mark I want him to get as a release with name. If I am cueing a checkdown, short bird or a send after a diversion where the bird is short I use a no hand soft verbal name send but without the hand cue. If I am cueing for a long bird I say "WAY BACK" with a loud verbal hand down send. Just what I use and seems to work in communicating with my dogs. For my dogs it helps them lock and load on where I want them to go and give my permission to launch!
 
#8 ·
Maybe, maybe not. The best trainers I know use it as a steadiness tool on the go bird. I think the dog generally has "identified" that mark. I use it on go birds, longer punch type birds and birds where factors might make it difficult to maintain a line.
 
#10 ·
I think it all goes back to how you train. If you do it every training session on every bird as a cue "good" or "that's right" then always use it. If you use it to emphasize a line on occasion then do it that way. In this case we all can be right based on how we train and use the cue.
 
#13 ·
OK, that raises a related question... sort of a dumb question which is why I've not mentioned it heretofore... but where the HECK do you put your hand? This is a dumb question I've thought about for some time and therefore watched people send their dogs, and honestly, it seems hands are all over the place. I've wondered why some people even bothered (three feet above the dog's head, behind their dog's ears, etc.)
 
#14 ·
#13 what an observation : somebody here will offer ideas but see if you can find in retriever history where this started and the reason. Of course in those days all the birds were much closer
Thank the e collar, radios and atv's for our distances today.

Off topic but how about an event with no radios and you had to tote everything. Bet bird placement would change
Dk
 
#16 · (Edited)
My dogs learned the hand down as part of a steadiness tool from the beginning. Every single, and as they progressed to hand down on go bird. No hand, no go.
Though the hand use has grown to be more than steady, as they began handling. It means "that's it" on a blind when they locked in on the right direction. I try not to use hand down on short birds marks in a triples.

Where to place the hand up out of their eyes. And I also leave it there and let the dog run out from underneath it. No karate chops. My dogs know by movement what my intentions are when I lower my arm even if my hand is not in direct line of sight.
Use of hand for me is a valuable tool we have learned together as becoming a team.
 
#20 ·
This! My arms don't reach that far either. :roll: On blinds I just say "good" when the dog locks in and a soft voice back for short or check downs, and a louder, longer baaackk for the distance and driving through stuff. Most times it looks like people using hands to send are just mimicking the person they learned under. Nothing wrong with that at all as long as you know why and how they were doing it.
 
#22 ·
I place my hand over the dog's head just above the eyes. I do not place hand in front of dog's eyes. I believe that the dogs can see my hand in their peripheral vision and that they can feel its presence (just like you can tell when someone has entered your space). I have toyed with placing my hand on the right side of its head to get pull
 
#24 ·
I don't use a hand on marks or blinds. Unless a dog is unsure and head swinging. Id rather the dog be focus on where its going with no distractions. That's just me !
 
#27 ·
Looks like to me that the hand is 12-18 inches above the dog's cranium and his finger tips are in front of the dog's nose so I would imagine the dog's peripheral vision could pick it up, or at least know when the hand is down or not. In your avatar Chris, the dog has just started moving so it's hard to compare to the picture of Mike Lardy... but my sense is that your hand position is very similar to his.
 
#30 ·
This is a great discussion. As I have been learning more and more about retriever training in the last few years, my hand has been all over the place, and probably most of the time confusing the hell out of my dog. I finally think I have the hang of where it needs to be and it is amazing the difference it has made.
 
#31 ·
here are examples of four different guys with different hand positions...lots of ways to accomplish the task







 
#35 ·
Another somewhat subtle point here is that the hand may be going where the feet are - at least to some degree.

If you as a handler line up further back relative to the dog, it's obviously harder to drop your hand in front of the dog without really reaching. However, it is a bit easier to line the dog from a further back position.

If you have my dog and you need to line up more toward the front so as to try to be a physical presence, it's much easier to quite literally drop your hand in front of the dog's face. I tend to be a little further up than the handler in the second picture from the top and thus my hand placement is more like that.

I thought that third handler looked familiar, and yes he without a doubt knew where that dog was going.
 
#37 ·
I think in the first photo the dog has started to move and it makes the hand look like it's about a foot above the dog's first cervical vertebra. If the dog could not possibly see your hand, really, who are you going through the motions for?

Let me maybe answer my own question. Look at the body angle of the handlers. The dog knows the handler has shifted or bent somewhat over him. And, assuming the dog and handler have established good communication and a rhythm for how the release happens, then maybe the hand per se is not the whole deal. I think whole body thing would be lost if you were standing at the dog's side and just released him.
 
#38 ·
I don't think it is a good assumption that all of these pictures are right at at the moment of send. It looks like most of them are just starting to put the hand down.

The dog does know that the handler has shifted. That is why you can step up to influence them left or back to influence them right (if the dog is on the left, vice versa on the right) without them moving or even directly seeing you except via peripheral vision.
 
#42 ·
FTR : if it matters to anyone

Pic 1: my brother Clint while we were training up in Idaho last summer with AFC Candlewoods She's So Fine (Sophie) running a land/water blind

Pic 2: pro Don Remien while we trained in Niland a few seasons back, and I think it was Tucker

Pic 3: Lanse and Rosa, Red River FT Bonham TX, 4th series Open water/land quad

Pic 4: pro Mark Edwards and cant' remember which dog but it was also at the RR field trial
 
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