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Thread: Another MH test rule clarification question

  1. #11
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    Mike
    What you have described is interrupted marks. Just my humble opinion this is a very poor setup! Some will say it test memory but more than likely it will result in handling series and wipe out the marks. It is a way for judges to fail dogs because they themselves are challenged as to where they should place the birds or the cover is very very poor so this is what they decide to do to challenge the dogs. The F/T advisory committee has been discussing this for a couple of years. I not sure of the out come but I have not seen this in years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Perry View Post
    Master series where the dog is required to run a double blind before the marks.
    Dog to the line, does a credible job on the blinds, gets invited to the marks.
    First bird thrown is a no bird. Handler says, “I’ll go back 3 then run the marks”
    Judge says, “If you go back 3, then you have to run the blinds again before the marks”
    Handler “My dog won’t go back to those blinds since he has already been there. He knows not to go back to an old fall”
    Judge “Well you can stay right there and run the marks now”
    Handler “I have just told him no bird on that mark that was misthrown. If I run now, he will think he is being set up for a correction. He won’t go there unless we go back 3. I have already run the blinds, why do I have to again?
    Judge “That is how we are going to do it. You choose”
    Handler had to choose his poison. He chose to stay at the line and run the marks and the dog did not want to go to where he had the no bird. As we watched, the dog was buggy at the line when lined for it, and eventually had to be handled to that mark.

    Question: Once an element of the series is complete and the element is scored independent of the other elements of the test, does it need to be completed again? It would seem to me that since there was a mechanical error in the test, the handler should get the option.

    MP
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  2. #12
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    You can fail the blind on the rerun if you fail to pick it up or commit an otherwise disqualifying handler or dog fault. Otherwise whatever it takes to pick up the blind.
    Tom Dorroh

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    Mike, how are you getting into all these Master tests?
    I did not say it was me running or my dog.
    I have hired a full time secretary at Zaxbys whose sole responsibility is to check EE every 5 minutes for test openings then type as fast as she can and get me entered. She did well until this week when she failed to get me in the Patrick S.C. test in Nov. She is on probation now.
    This month I am going to Western N.Y. and next to 2 in Minnesota. Glad to get away from the heat. Also my partner and I just bought a house in No Dak to hunt from and in between Minn. tests I am driving over to see what we bought.
    The pain of regret is much worse than the pain of hard work.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Brad B's Avatar
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    It's not interrupted marks, they hadn't been thrown prior to running the blinds.

    I agree you should re-run the blinds but your first score stands barring any DQ event, i.e.- no goes or maybe freezing on a bird.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Lady Duck Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad B View Post
    It's not interrupted marks, they hadn't been thrown prior to running the blinds.

    I agree you should re-run the blinds but your first score stands barring any DQ event, i.e.- no goes or maybe freezing on a bird.
    I agree with Brad.
    When it stops being fun, I will find something else to do with my time and money.

    The Lady

  6. #16
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    Just for giggles here is what the regs state on p 21:

    "Section 12. Unfair Tests. If there is an occurrence
    which makes for a relatively unfair test of a dog’s abilities,
    the Judges shall exercise their discretion in determining
    how to score the abilities of the dog in that series. In
    doing so, the Judges may decide that it is necessary or
    unnecessary to re-run the dog. When a dog is granted a
    re-run under this section, the entire series, including all
    testing elements, ie, walk-ups, diversion birds, marks,
    blinds, etc. must be repeated.
    The re-run of a mark or blind which was not previously
    completed shall be scored by taking into consideration
    the abilities exhibited by the dog prior to the point
    of unfairness in the initial run, and after the point of
    unfairness in the re-run.
    If, during the re-run of a mark or blind not previously
    completed, a dog commits an infraction that would have
    resulted in it’s automatic elimination in the initial run, the
    dog cannot receive a qualifying score.
    The handler of the working dog must attempt to pick the
    birds up in the same order in the re-run as was completed
    in the initial running of the tests."

    So yes, the entire series, including the previously completed blinds, must be re-run. And no, the re-run blinds do not count. Only the blind scores from the first run. Scoring starts again "at the point of unfairness." Yes, a fault during the rerun, even for the parts already scored, that would require disqualification - eating a bird on the return, say - requires the dog to be eliminated.

    Other thoughts - 1 - Handlers, especially at master, should know the rules. 2 - Judges judge and handlers handle. Judges should decide how no birds will be addressed - stay on the line, go back 3, whatever - announce that at the start and stay consistent. Getting into a debate with a handler on the line about what to do with a no-bird is almost never a good idea.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Pretty sure AKC rules, requires the whole shebang to be re-ran. All work up to the point of the interruption would not be re-judged, you would keep the original scores; but the dog would have to get through it. I believe they do this because all the factors of the test need to be in place for every dog. It would be unfair for a single dog to run the blinds, go off-line get under control, forget about those blinds, then come back run the marks, rested and clear without the blind distraction; when every other dog has to run the marks directly after they have ran the blinds, dealing with old scent, intersecting fall areas etc. It's Much the same if you had something happened where a no bird had to be called after a dog has already ran 2 marks of a triple, he must run the entire triple not just a single mark to finish it off. In masters they aren't judging single marks, their judging single marks as part of a triple. They aren't just judging a set of blinds, then a set of marks, they're judging both in conjunction with each other.

    The caveat of this is that, the judges invited the dogs back for the marks, call-backs = a separate series, thus they would've been legal just to let the dog run the marks, as he had passed the blinds. Again it's their discretion, and I believe it's better to re-run everything, but (only by invite marks) would've made it legal either way.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 07-08-2014 at 02:14 PM.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Dogs View Post
    Just for giggles here is what the regs state on p 21:
    Bob got it, of course. One nuance is that while the entire series has to be re-run, it is up to the judges to define the series. Clearly here the series was a double blind and the marks, which takes care of the marks and additional element requirement. However, it doesn't have to be. The judges *could* set up a double blind and have the marks as a separate series. If the marks were by invitation, for example, the handler could have a point.

  9. #19
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    Mike
    The question is before the blinds were run were the marks on the ground????

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    Bob got it, of course. One nuance is that while the entire series has to be re-run, it is up to the judges to define the series. Clearly here the series was a double blind and the marks, which takes care of the marks and additional element requirement. However, it doesn't have to be. The judges *could* set up a double blind and have the marks as a separate series. If the marks were by invitation, for example, the handler could have a point.
    w. price

  10. #20
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    I believe if the marks are by invitation the judges have set up a separate series for the marking test therefore only the marks should be run. Of course I'm not smart enough to judge so take my opinion for what it's worth nothing.

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