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Hand Signal Confusion

5K views 26 replies 20 participants last post by  NateB 
#1 ·
I've got a 10 month old lab pup that overall is doing spectacular. When I try to cast him from a distance I will stick my left arm straight out to the left to cast left, right arm straight out when casting right, and right arm straight up to cast him back.

He frequently will confuse the back command with cast right, I assume since I'm using the same arm. What can I do to correct this, and is there a better signal that is less confusing?
 
#4 ·
Make your "over" cast exaggerated to start with. I mean when you give a right cast, take a step to the right while casting over with your right arm too. Same with left cast. It will really encourage the dog to go that way. That helped with my dog. Then slowly ween your exaggerations down to where you are just using your arm. You definitely need to have a hand signal for back cast especially when the dog gets at a distance.
 
#5 ·
Reteach, start from the beginning, and put that dog on a long line.
But if you plan not to teach angle back, just use the arm opposite from the one you used for over.
 
#6 ·
When you say "a distance", about how much distance?

Evan
 
#7 ·
You probably want to build this skill in more of a controlled setting. What you want to have at the end of the day is a dog who will go straight over when your arm is straight out (left or right) and on a "Back" you want the dog to spin to his left and drive back if you stick your right arm up, and spin to the right and dig back if you stick your left hand straight up.

I should tell you that there are some super DVD's and books you can buy that will show you the whole step-wise program for developing a good handling dog. A search for Bill Hillmann or Mike Lardy or Smartworks by Even Graham and there are lots of others.

But for right now...

Put out a couple of bumpers about 15 feet or so apart. Sit the dog down about 15 or so feet in front of the piles... facing away from them. Go stand in front of your dog. Blow your sit whistle (I know he's already sitting, but he needs to get the hang of the timing... sit... watch me now, something is about to happen... handle.) So the dog is sitting. Now choose either left or right arm. As you stick it up in the air, put a lot of body language into it and say "back".

First, you'll probably be surprised how easy this is for a smart dog who wants to retrieve.
Second, you probably will both have fun doing this. Make it a game.

When he's doing that... find a flat field with low cover, visualize a baseball field in your head. Put bumpers at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and your dog on the pitcher's mound facing you at home plate. You can work on right and left overs and the right back and left back. Remember: Sit whistle. Pause (1-1000, 2-1000... make him wait a bit and get eager and ready to move) then handle. Give it some body English.

The reason you want a dog to spin both ways is because you never get the full 180 degree turn. So you're helping him by letting him know on which side of the true line he'll find that bird.

You'll really enjoy those books and DVD's and you'll find a bunch of them advertised on this sight. And you'll make a lot of good friends who can help you if you seek out a local retriever club.

Good luck!
 
#9 ·
I learned from Roy McFall to throw my over from my hand at my side UP, as if you were reaching to shake someones hand to your side, that way it is a very different motion from any back or angled back cast...
 
#10 ·
Thank you, this is a great suggestion.

I am working at roughly 20-30 yards. He will turn the direction of the arm when he does it right. He began doing this naturally. He cast left and right correctly, 95% of the time.... Back all of the time if he hears the verbal command. However at a distance when just given a visual he gets confused. I will try to monitor and control my arm movement better, while taking your advice.

I hunt flooded timber most of the time so 400 yard retrieves isn't something I will frequently ask the dog to do. He does however need to know to go back when I'm not at his side.
 
#11 ·
I modified my hand signals this evening while training, hank seems to catch on quick and we seem to be showing improvement.

I was was bringing hand up in front then going out. I now go strait up from the sides, no hands in the front now unless casting back. This seems to have made a positive influence and I'll continue working this way.... Thanks again.
 
#17 ·
I'm still not getting a clear picture of your training progression for handling. It appears we're going at this backward, but are not getting some grip on basic handling skill. If your dog is just learning to handle, distance is your enemy. It erodes control, and it doesn't sound like you have much control yet. Neither does it sound like your dog has more than rudimentary skills. Are you resistant to the idea of starting from ground zero and doing this right?

Evan
 
#13 ·
At this young age and so early in the steps of handling, try sticking with verbals still and telling him what you want. This might help. As he gets farther along and is farther away, the vocal casts will drive him deep due to force. I am teaching handling to one now, and still give verbals since I am still teaching.

Also, I have an older dog that used to be really bad about digging back on overs and I had to start pushing down and out and really exaggerate the casts when giving an over for her to understand. I did that for a while, then started to make the down and out less and give more of a straight out. Didn't take her long to catch on. Good luck.
 
#14 ·
I don't think he is confused, just doesn't know yet. Remember, distance erodes training. I would rather them turn back when I give an over, than go left or right when I give a back. Also, if you are running a blind you hope you don't need to use over.

Distance erodes training.
 
#19 ·
I would ask two questions.

First, what are you wearing? I was taught to wear a white, long-sleeved shirt to give the dog every chance in the world to see and take an accurate cast. Even at teaching distances. Black gloves may help too.

Second, have you stood in front of a mirror and observed yourself casting? These dogs are super observant, and I bet you will find you are doing something that the dog is perceiving that you are not. I had the opposite problem from you, and I discovered in front of my mirror that I was unknowingly sort of "loading up" and making a very slight sideways movement before giving a straight up back cast. My dog, a fast twitch sort, was seeing that and taking off. Once I slowed down overall and ironed that flaw out of my casting, he improved 100%.

YMMV. Good luck with your dog.
 
#21 · (Edited)
1)I'd bring him back close & teach left back & right back (different hands).
2) I'd have someone watch me to make sure I'm not doing crap or moving other arms- legs when the dog is watching before I cast back one way or the other. Just to make sure I'm not confusing the dog before I give backs from a distance.
3) I'd teach a literal back, which is basically put one hand up in front of your chest from your neutral position (verbal Back), I don't care which way the dog turns Just that he high-tails it straight back. A very nice cast to have in one's arsenal

As to your problem I'd bet on something be up with #2, that your body is inadvertently doing something, most likely your not in a neutral position when you cast right-back, thus the dog is seeing the right arm move. He sees thus takes a right cast before you complete the back cast movement. Your sending him mixed signals.

Neutral position: Have both hand placed in front of your chest, (elbows in/your a post with nothing on either side to direct-distract the dog). Be in position before you sit the dog. Sit the dog (make him wait). show him the hand (in front of your chest/your still a post) for the side your going to cast (make him wait-No auto casting-no movement you haven't given him a cast, just priming him on direction so he's not allowed to move) extend the hand and arm, straight up-45-out for the cast (no circular-side movement of the arm/you go from a post to a sign post showing one single non-confusing direction). See if your dog doesn't start taking much better casts. ;)
 
#24 ·
Slow down your hand/arm when you cast and do what others have said, exaggerate over with some body English. Slow down the BACK cast with your arm so he sees it. Palm out too helps.
 
#25 ·
I'm a bit surprised the OP is not working RH & LH back. It's easy, as others have noted, to introduce early but difficult to ingrain if pup has established a habit of only turning in a single direction. And there will be plenty of times you need that spin to a specific side.
I was mentored by an experienced trainer to let pup take a sit position in front with a bias to either direction even if it meant pup had to be adjusted to get some bias. Then cast the side pup is "leaning." Over a few days allow pup to gradually straighten his sit. I have been pleasantly surprised that the current project is taking RH & LH backs reliably after just a couple of weeks and he's now at 75+ yards. And his intro to swim-by has been the easiest I've ever experienced.
 
#26 ·
I don't normally give training advice, being new myself, but have you tried watching your casts in a mirror? It was very enlightening for me when I did it. No wonder my poor dog was confused.
 
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