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Thread: Desecration of Robert E. Lee grave in the name of political correctness

  1. #41
    Senior Member .44 magnum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampcollielover View Post
    MM....i agree with much of what you say, except about Lincoln.....their you are wrong! Regardless, you seemed to skip over the key issue of the Civil Way....Slavery! Hard to defend that position, I believe, even if you are Robert E. Lee.....
    Actually the war was more about the direction the country was headed towards.. Being Industrial vs agricultural. A way of life... Slavery was only a minor aspect as to why the Southern States did not want to remain in the Union of States.

    As history always repeats itself, I envision a similar war taking place in the near future. Blue vs Red States.
    I like one-shot kills where possible and prefer to do all my hunting before I shoot. ..... Elmer Keith



  2. #42
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudminnow View Post
    Henlee, do tell about this massive southern offensive that took place? I am pretty sure the confederates only enters into the union once on an offensive course. I would ask you to read the Declaration of Independence which blatantly says that secession is needed at times. It is one of our founding documents but we seems to forget the liberty to the individuals it was trying to protect.

    Robert E. Lee was not perfect but he was twice the man Lincoln or US Grant could ever be. He had the respect of both confederate and union troops. He fought honorably, and he believed that there are things more important than a strong central government.

    I get tired of debating this issue with folks who have been brainwashed into worshipping at the altar of the United States and that it is heresy to think secession could be a good idea. You would have fit in really well with the British loyalists in the revolutionary war.

    Again no side in the war between the states was perfect, but if the union did not have a steady supply of Irish immigrants to reload the front lines with, there might be two countries at least, and the original United States of America would of had to choose to have a strong federal government or to give individuals more freedom. The civil war has paved the way for many injustices and federal over reach of powers that we suffer from today.

    If Thomas Jefferson were here today and he saw that the government could force you to buy a product or you would be taxed, try to legislate mandatory birth control, and steal 40% of some folks earnings, I dare say he would think it is time to secede too. Make a copy of the Declaration of Independence and send it to Washington DC
    I am not here to say that Gen. Lee was not a great general. He was. He would also nowadays be called a traitor and a terrorist. The truth is he was a citizen of the United States and betrayed it by trying to succeed. If not for the compassion of Abraham Lincoln and his desire to reconstitute the country he would have been shot by a firing squad at any other point in history.


    Secession is not a good idea. Division is weakness and weakness will be exploited by your enemies. In the end it all worked out and it is hard to imagine our prosperity if we had not been united through the years. I very firmly believe in and love my country. I have no problem with the government putting down enemies both foreign and domestic. Have no doubt about it those rebels were enemies and a threat to the way of life in our country. If you think that is a revision of history please explain.

    The Confederacy pushed as far as Ohio. The largest battle in the war was in Gettysburg, Penn. The south did attack north and was engaged in a defensive strategy. Their goals were not to hold their lines but to conquer the Union. Had Gettysburg gone different we would be arguing about them taking the American flags down at Abraham Lincoln University.


    I have no idea what Thomas Jefferson would think of his experiment. Your right he could be shocked by what we have become, however in his wisdom he gave to us some basic rules to follow and left the country to be ours. You will have to show me that passage about secession.
    Ole and Sven are quietly sitting in a boat fishing, chewing and drinking beer when suddenly Sven says, 'I think I'm gonna divorce my wife - she ain't spoke to me in over 2 months.' Ole sips his beer and says, 'Better think it over...women like that are hard to find.'

  3. #43
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    Text from the Declaration of Independence

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."


    That is as clear a definition of secession and the right to do so that I have found. Secession is a great idea because it shows the bigger government where it gets it's power. "From the consent of the governed".

    Gettysburg was definitely in union territory, I am not arguing that. But nothing like what Sherman did to the south was do e to the north because the goal of the south was defensive, not a shock and awe offense.

    You have to remember our country was rebels who seceded from a powerful central government. Secession is not always a bad thing and should be threatened to our government even today

  4. #44
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post

    He would also nowadays be called a traitor and a terrorist. The truth is he was a citizen of the United States and betrayed it by trying to succeed. If not for the compassion of Abraham Lincoln and his desire to reconstitute the country he would have been shot by a firing squad at any other point in history.

    .
    You have got to be joking!

    First of all, the terrorist were the Northern insurgents that attacked and killed their own people.

    In those days, people were more loyal to their State then to the Federal Government. Gen. Robt E Lee was protecting his state, his family, his home(Arlington) from the aggression of the Northern Federalist against State's Rights!

    Robt E Lee was 10 times the man Grant, Sherman or Lincoln ever hoped of being!
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  5. #45
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    I am not here to say that Gen. Lee was not a great general. He was. He would also nowadays be called a traitor and a terrorist. The truth is he was a citizen of the United States and betrayed it by trying to succeed. If not for the compassion of Abraham Lincoln and his desire to reconstitute the country he would have been shot by a firing squad at any other point in history.


    'nuff said!
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migillicutty View Post
    6% of southerners owned 95% of the slaves in the south. You think the 94% sent their sons off to die in a war over slavery? It was an issue. It was not the key issue. Lincoln was not so great. His Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in states who rebelled against the union. It did not free the slaves in union controlled states nor in 6 La parishes controlled by the North or the 64 counties of WV. The North had a number of slavers themselves. Little known history because it isn't taught. The EP was used to keep Europe from recognizing the confederacy. He admitted as much. Saying if he could preserve the union without freeing any slave he would do so. He went on to state that if freeing them all is what it would take he would do that. Lincoln closed over 300 newspapers and suspended habeas corpus during the war jailing 13,000 US citizens. He repeatedly violated the Constitution. There is a reason he is Obama's favorite pres. We could also go into the atrocities the North committed during the war by taking the fight to civilians in the south, or the refusal of prisoner exchange because the North didn't want the South to get back their men and it cost the lives of over 30,000 on both sides.

    The south was exporting 75% of American goods at the time. 85% of southerners were landowners. They wanted to preserve their liberties and individual rights. The North wanted their wealth and to centralize power. After the war they raped the south and stole the land and means of production.
    Your post is right on the mark. Thank you for telling it like it was. ............................
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  7. #47
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .44 magnum View Post
    Actually the war was more about the direction the country was headed towards.. Being Industrial vs agricultural. A way of life... Slavery was only a minor aspect as to why the Southern States did not want to remain in the Union of States.

    As history always repeats itself, I envision a similar war taking place in the near future. Blue vs Red States.
    I know some historians minimize the 'Slavery' issue as a primary reason for the Civil War. Others agree that it was one of the primary issues! Regretfully, I too believe we are in a downward spiral that may result in armed conflict amongst US Citizens....!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    The truth is he was a citizen of the United States and betrayed it by trying to succeed.
    Maybe General Lee thought good ol Abe was a tyrant so he decided to excercise his second amendment right. Could happen again with the way things are going in this country...just saying.
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Henlee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    You have got to be joking!

    First of all, the terrorist were the Northern insurgents that attacked and killed their own people.

    In those days, people were more loyal to their State then to the Federal Government. Gen. Robt E Lee was protecting his state, his family, his home(Arlington) from the aggression of the Northern Federalist against State's Rights!

    Robt E Lee was 10 times the man Grant, Sherman or Lincoln ever hoped of being!
    If one views the confederacy as a legitimate government then perhaps I would be speaking out of turn. However they were a bunch of rebel turn coats and by any definition of domestic terrorist they would qualify. The union did attack the South first, but seceding from the Union was an act of war.


    While I do questions Lees character, do not assume for a second that I do not consider him the best General in the war. The man was brilliant and fought very well.
    Ole and Sven are quietly sitting in a boat fishing, chewing and drinking beer when suddenly Sven says, 'I think I'm gonna divorce my wife - she ain't spoke to me in over 2 months.' Ole sips his beer and says, 'Better think it over...women like that are hard to find.'

  10. #50
    Senior Member Migillicutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlee View Post
    If one views the Continental Congress as a legitimate government then perhaps I would be speaking out of turn. However they were a bunch of rebel turn coats and by any definition of domestic terrorist they would qualify. The British Crown did attack the Colonies first, but seceding from the Crown was an act of war.
    I wonder do you have same disdain for Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Henry, Franklin etc??

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