The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 159

Thread: Judging bias

  1. #51
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Illinois/Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcat View Post
    I'm NOT talking about one bird. Videos were taken of every series. Keep in mind I didn't start the thread, I'm just trying to keep all the naysayers honest. I'm extremely proud of the dog and handler, but wish JUSTICE would've been done in this instance, I'm sure you can relate.
    Yep. I have taken my lumps. Still do. But I just looked at the entries. You've got a couple out of state people that placed. Amateur handled dogs and pro handle dogs. There is no outward bias.

    I know it's a big disappointment. But sometimes you just have to put it behind you and move on. Your only other choice is to run someone over with a bus, and that is just not legal. . Like I said, the handler will be back on a frequent basis for the fourth series. People will get to know him. It's like what Vanman earlier, you got to develop a thick skin.

    Dave Rorem always said focus on the attainment. What did you do better during this field trial than the last one. If you don't find something else to focus on, you don't last very long in the sport, or any competitive sport.
    Susan

    FC Tribute to Justice, JH "Honor"
    FC AFC Contempt of Court "Ruckus"
    Medal Of Honor, QAA "Valor"
    HRCH Kirby's High Sierra, SH, QAA "Kirby"
    HRCH Niki Snowbird, SH, QAA "Niki"
    Southland Order In the Court, QAA "Gavel" July 17, 2002- March 24, 2013
    Southland Rusty Nail - derby points, qual placements "Rusty"
    www.justiceretrievers.com

  2. #52
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Illinois/Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcat View Post
    You went from "take your lumps" to "I've seen his dogs run, he'll be in the 4th series frequently". I'll take that as a victory.

    This isn't the first trial that this specific dog has "taken lumps". Seems to be more of a pattern than the FT community would like to let on. You saw that trial, so maybe you can comment. Don't incriminate yourself though, don't want your dogs to suffer on a young and comers behalf.
    sorry shirley. I saw one series. And not even an entire one series. and I'm not even sure which black dog i saw running. I saw two different ones I believe. I haven't changed my opinion, Shirley.
    Susan

    FC Tribute to Justice, JH "Honor"
    FC AFC Contempt of Court "Ruckus"
    Medal Of Honor, QAA "Valor"
    HRCH Kirby's High Sierra, SH, QAA "Kirby"
    HRCH Niki Snowbird, SH, QAA "Niki"
    Southland Order In the Court, QAA "Gavel" July 17, 2002- March 24, 2013
    Southland Rusty Nail - derby points, qual placements "Rusty"
    www.justiceretrievers.com

  3. #53
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeDog View Post
    Yep. I have taken my lumps. Still do. But I just looked at the entries. You've got a couple out of state people that placed. Amateur handled dogs and pro handle dogs. There is no outward bias.

    I know it's a big disappointment. But sometimes you just have to put it behind you and move on. Your only other choice is to run someone over with a bus, and that is just not legal. . Like I said, the handler will be back on a frequent basis for the fourth series. People will get to know him. It's like what Vanman earlier, you got to develop a thick skin.

    Dave Rorem always said focus on the attainment. What did you do better during this field trial than the last one. If you don't find something else to focus on, you don't last very long in the sport, or any competitive sport.
    Thank you Susan for your kind words. I believe you now get my point. At first you were strongly argumentative and now seem empathetic. He will be back for sure and people will get to know him. As stewards of the game we need to continually question and put pressure on those who control the quality of trials and judging which we partake in. In an intensely competitive game, it only makes sense that we do so because we want to win.

  4. #54
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Illinois/Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcat View Post
    Thank you Susan for your kind words. I believe you now get my point. At first you were strongly argumentative and now seem empathetic. He will be back for sure and people will get to know him. As stewards of the game we need to continually question and put pressure on those who control the quality of trials and judging which we partake in. In an intensely competitive game, it only makes sense that we do so because we want to win.
    actually,
    my position has never changed. Your position, the way you are presenting yourself will only hurt the dog and handler. because people may take the way you are presenting yourself as the way that this young handler is presenting himself. you were the 1 who was on attack calling names and taking cheap shots while hiding behind a handle. Think about how are you may be hurting the dog and your friend. over a green ribbon on a finish he should have been proud of. it's this kind of behavior that just lessened the value of that green ribbon. and make people not want to judge. good job Shirley.
    Last edited by JusticeDog; 07-22-2014 at 04:16 AM.
    Susan

    FC Tribute to Justice, JH "Honor"
    FC AFC Contempt of Court "Ruckus"
    Medal Of Honor, QAA "Valor"
    HRCH Kirby's High Sierra, SH, QAA "Kirby"
    HRCH Niki Snowbird, SH, QAA "Niki"
    Southland Order In the Court, QAA "Gavel" July 17, 2002- March 24, 2013
    Southland Rusty Nail - derby points, qual placements "Rusty"
    www.justiceretrievers.com

  5. #55
    Senior Member bjoiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Albany, GA
    Posts
    1,017

    Default

    I have heard the argument that friends or workers get preferential treatment by judges. I think the opposite may occur at times.

    A couple of trials I have judged a friend won. Unfortunately, after I looked at the placements and saw it was my friend, I went backed and re-reviewed my results to make sure. Fortunately, the results didn't change and me and my co-judge had the same placements. What bothers me is if it was not a friend, I don't think I would have thought twice about the placements.
    Bubba Joiner

    HRCH UH Ridgewood's Georgia Dawg (500 point club)
    HRCH Ridgewood's Gold II
    HRCH Hold My Beer & Watch This
    Hope She's A Duk Dawg

  6. #56
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    164

    Default

    Grace Hopper Quote.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by JusticeDog View Post
    actually,
    my position has never changed. Your position, the way you are presenting yourself will only hurt the dog and handler. because people may take the way you are presenting yourself as the way that this young handler is presenting himself. you were the 1 who was on attack calling names and taking cheap shots while hiding behind a handle. Think about how are you may be hurting the dog and your friend. over a green ribbon on a finish he should have been proud of. it's this kind of behavior that just lessened the value of that green ribbon. and make people not want to judge. good job Shirley.
    Just so we're clear, your position is that FT judges are predominately fair but you acknowledge that there is a political factor involved in judging. If you look back at my original post I simply asked what can we do to make judging more objective. All you have provided are excuses for why the FT world is the way that it is. You're suggesting that people should just "adapt" to the current practices by being a steward of the game, taking their lumps and trying again. See the attached image for some perspective on "change".

    The sheer fact that you believe the way I'm presenting myself on a public forum will negatively impact the dog or handler is evidence that there is definitive political ramifications to one's actions completely separate from the dog work. That's a huge issue for me. A judges job should be to evaluate the talent in the field aside from any preconceived notions about the handler.

    I didn't call anyone names or take cheap shots Susan. I didn't reference any judges, participants or dogs in any of my posts. I was simply applying your thought process and statements to a different venue so you could see how ridiculous it sounds. If that hit too close to home then I'm sorry you were offended.

    Our interchange over the last ~12 hours hasn't done anything to lessen the value of the green ribbon. I'm still very proud of the team and will continue to support them. If for some reason a potential FT judge doesn't want to participate because he/she is afraid that they may be biased in their judging, then those are the type people that shouldn't be holding the book.

  7. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    195

    Default

    @bigcat
    Ill tell you what. I've never judges nor run a trial nor judged a test. I can answer your question though, regarding how we can make judging more objective. Do not, as a handler, gallery member or member of any certain camp be a distraction. The reason Lanse and some of the others say thanks and walk away from gift or a screwing the same is because to do otherwise colors people's perspectives- and makes I more difficult to judge objectively. It's not politics its human nature- if one is seen as a jackass, it's easier to see what that individuals dog / the dog they are rattling about is doing wrong than it is to see what's doing right

    Do yourself , your dogs, and your friends a favor and quit being a distraction.

    Were I judging the aforementioned dog in a derby I would know for a fact that the camp behind him is an asspain waiting to happen- and I would damn sure be ready to deal with it... All if which might serve to sour me a little on the dogs performance. Or it might not. But if objectivity is what you crave... Don't be so distracting- people will miss the dog work while lookin out for whatever poop they think will start flying when you're about.


    Another way to look at it... If you always are demanding a justification for not placing- people will always have a justification for not placing you.

  8. #58
    Senior Member huntinman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    7,036

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcat View Post
    Grace Hopper Quote.jpg

    Just so we're clear, your position is that FT judges are predominately fair but you acknowledge that there is a political factor involved in judging. If you look back at my original post I simply asked what can we do to make judging more objective. All you have provided are excuses for why the FT world is the way that it is. You're suggesting that people should just "adapt" to the current practices by being a steward of the game, taking their lumps and trying again. See the attached image for some perspective on "change".

    The sheer fact that you believe the way I'm presenting myself on a public forum will negatively impact the dog or handler is evidence that there is definitive political ramifications to one's actions completely separate from the dog work. That's a huge issue for me. A judges job should be to evaluate the talent in the field aside from any preconceived notions about the handler.

    I didn't call anyone names or take cheap shots Susan. I didn't reference any judges, participants or dogs in any of my posts. I was simply applying your thought process and statements to a different venue so you could see how ridiculous it sounds. If that hit too close to home then I'm sorry you were offended.

    Our interchange over the last ~12 hours hasn't done anything to lessen the value of the green ribbon. I'm still very proud of the team and will continue to support them. If for some reason a potential FT judge doesn't want to participate because he/she is afraid that they may be biased in their judging, then those are the type people that shouldn't be holding the book.

    El Gato,

    I don't know you and was not at the trial in question... But your approach needs some work. Reminds of myself a little actually. The field trial world is a small one. It is not hard for anyone with a brain to figure out which trial you are talking about in today's electronically connected world. So the fact that you didn't come right out and name the judges means nothing... The fact that you don't identify yourself means more... Though that shouldn't be hard to figure out either if one was so inclined.

    Have you ever judged a trial?

    Have you ever been to the line at a trial?

    Care to share a little more about your experience level to back up your proclamations?

    You seem to think you have the game figured out... After all, the video doesn't lie you say. Unfortunately, there is no instant replay in Field Trials at this point. The judges decisions are final. You can disagree. But to do it publicly is unsportsmanlike... When I was younger, I had to learn that lesson the hard way. Fortunately for me, I wasn't suspended, but I could have been. What I am saying is, even the top dogs... National Champs, don't place every time they think they should. You can't huff and puff and get mad. You pull your boots up and come back and get them next week. As long as we have humans judging this sport there will be folks who disagree with the outcome...

    I might point out... I too am highly critical of some judging... I am also an all age judge.

    Good luck in the future.
    Bill Davis

  9. #59
    Senior Member John Robinson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Bigfork, Montana
    Posts
    3,245

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigcat View Post
    What judges "like" versus "don't like" shouldn't be taken into consideration and is frankly irrelevant when judging talent. It's about the dog work, not who donates a a bird thrower, trains with the judges or donates land to compete on. I'm sure more undergrads would go to the Illinois Institute of Technology to complete their law degree if they knew that you could gain acceptance by being a steward of the game.
    I think you are misinterpreting what Susan meant by what certain judges "like". I don't think she meant like as in the judges like certain handlers or dogs and will give said an undeserved placement. I think she was referring to how they perceive "good dog work". Some judges are all about the line and not cheating a little bit and will ignore a hunt at the end of the perfect line, while others place more emphasis on the dog that appeared to mark the bird even if he took a banana line. Just an example, there are many more ways judges are different in how they evaluate talent.

    Regarding your situation, you were there, we were not, plus you have video evidence, so maybe this was one of those cases where somebody really did get screwed. I still believe those kind of politics are rare. I also know from having seen it over and over, that many people have an inflated view of their dogs performance relative to the rest, hence we tend to be skeptical when we read post about a screw job, so you tend to be painted with that broad brush when you post a story like that.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Labs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Mayer, MN
    Posts
    258

    Default

    What about instances when the rules are "black and white" but judges choose to ignore them for their set up? If you call them out on it at a test or a trial, you put a big red X on yourself...where is it that we can have some meaningful conversation about this? What recourse does a handler have, besides, "suck it up and try again"? Or do you simply not run under that judge again and get accused of judge shopping?
    The dog will always prove you wrong

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •