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Thread: Judging bias

  1. #101
    Senior Member DSMITH1651's Avatar
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    Wow. This thread makes me really question my sanity for becoming a FT judge and having my integrity questioned on the internet by a bunch of people that did not see everyone run from the line and take notes on each and every performance.

    I have only been involved with FT for 6 years. not long, but I have been a stakes chair or FT chair for every trial my club has held in those 6 years and I have had the pleasure to train with some of the best in the sport.

    I personaly have not seen one case whare a judge was being dishonest, I have seen things and setups that I did not like, but nothing that was perposley unfair or dishonest. The one thing I have seen a lot of is handlers coming off of the line commenting how there dogs pined the marks or did a wonderful blind when in reality there dog did average at best and as soon as the callbacks or placements are called out the bitching and complaining starts about they are getting screwed and they surely did better then Billy Bob over there so the judges must be dishonest or blind. Example One handler last year got a standing ovation by the gallery on a hard land blind to that was requiring lots of handling and he lining the bind well I was up on the line taking birds at that time and I heard the one judge say to the other "I don't know why their clapping that dog was at least 30yds off line"! I guess what I am getting at is unless you have watched every dog from the line and taken detailed notes give the judges the benefit of the doubt the just may have seen something you didn't.
    Duane
    PS the best and most successful people in a compeditve sport I have ever seen have always taken there lumps and went and worked harder not bitch and complain about how unlucky they are or how so and so is out to get them.

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  2. #102
    Senior Member J Hoggatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSMITH1651 View Post
    Wow. This thread makes me really question my sanity for becoming a FT judge and having my integrity questioned on the internet by a bunch of people that did not see everyone run from the line and take notes on each and every performance.

    I have only been involved with FT for 6 years. not long, but I have been a stakes chair or FT chair for every trial my club has held in those 6 years and I have had the pleasure to train with some of the best in the sport.

    I personaly have not seen one case whare a judge was being dishonest, I have seen things and setups that I did not like, but nothing that was perposley unfair or dishonest. The one thing I have seen a lot of is handlers coming off of the line commenting how there dogs pined the marks or did a wonderful blind when in reality there dog did average at best and as soon as the callbacks or placements are called out the bitching and complaining starts about they are getting screwed and they surely did better then Billy Bob over there so the judges must be dishonest or blind. Example One handler last year got a standing ovation by the gallery on a hard land blind to that was requiring lots of handling and he lining the bind well I was up on the line taking birds at that time and I heard the one judge say to the other "I don't know why their clapping that dog was at least 30yds off line"! I guess what I am getting at is unless you have watched every dog from the line and taken detailed notes give the judges the benefit of the doubt the just may have seen something you didn't.
    Duane
    PS the best and most successful people in a compeditve sport I have ever seen have always taken there lumps and went and worked harder not bitch and complain about how unlucky they are or how so and so is out to get them.

    luck is when hard work and preparation meets opportunity
    Completely Agree!!
    Some on here - have made very generalized and offensive comments! Rarely offended by people not willing to share their name, but in this thread
    I find myself there.
    Attributed to Ben Franklin-
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    "When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid."

    "Arguing with Idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon..... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to sh$t on the board and strut around like it won anyway."

  3. #103
    Senior Member suepuff's Avatar
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    So what is "hooking" a bird? Somebody asked earlier when the discussion was centered around that particular bird at a test.

    Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the judging bias. I don't keep lists of judges. I go to enjoy the competition, have fun running the dogs, learn, socialize, drink and eat and if We are fortunate to earn a ribbon, good for us. Human nature is what it is. I don't particularly worry about bias. I don't think the FT group are villains. I enjoy learning from them and respect their abilities.

    So what is hooking a bird?

    Sue Puff
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  4. #104
    Member priceskeet's Avatar
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    Life is not always fair. Haven't been in the game along time like alot of you. Mostly Hunt test run several Q's. Who cares if you run your own dog or a pro runs him.
    It don't matter if he hunts or never hunts. I do it because I like working with my dogs and like the friends I have made in the dog world !!!!!! I will never have enough money to have a NFC or NAFC but I still like to run. Judges I have run under try to a good job. So far I have never been put out when I though I shouldn't have. I have stayed in when I didn't think I should have. We should enjoy our DOGS and have FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    HRCH RP'S JUMP'N JOSIE MH
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  5. #105
    Senior Member Rainmaker's Avatar
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    What a bunch a hooey. HTers aren't treated any worse than anyone else at FT. I ran HT for 12 years before I ever put on a white coat. You can get hosed in any venue, you can get a gift in any venue, that's just how the dice rolls with any sport, or pretty much anything involving humans. The ones who think there's some prevailing conspiracy or good ol' boys' club with judging FT are just wrong. Heck, some of the judges I've run under I've met at HT. Sure, there are groups that would appear from the outside to be "cliques", but mostly, that's because they've known each other for a long time, competed against each other, trained together, nothing more, nothing less. If you walk up and talk to them, they turn out to be, well, human. Sometimes, the buddies talking with the judges are BSing about stuff completely unrelated to the trial or even dogs, vs the conspiracy that they are helping set the test or whatever.

    Whoever posted and claimed the blinds are set up and obviously trained on by the "buddies" beforehand, good lord what a bunch of hogwash. In training grounds, there are only so many options for blinds and marks and if the are grounds used regularly (as in, get out and train often, because it actually takes work to train/run a dog successfully), you betcha some of the locals are going to have seen the same or similar setups. But it isn't a conspiracy, it's just how it works when there are only so many ponds and fields available. And it can just as often work against the local dog as not.

    I think some people go in with a chip on their shoulder just looking for ammo. I think others are expecting to have a red carpet rolled out and a brass band playing, because they are "new and the sport needs new blood" and when that doesn't happen, when the reality is that FT are tough competition and work and talent and luck and the ribbons can be few and far between, they cry. The experienced people see it over and over and get tired of it and maybe don't act quite so warm and fuzzy to every noob that comes up to them blathering about their pup that's going to get on the Derby list no problem blah blah blah. I think that's what paying the dues means, not that you need to be someone to place, but that you need to earn the respect, not just expect to get a ribbon because YOU think your dog did great. You can't possibly have watched every dog from the line to know what the judges saw. No way, no how. If you love the sport, you stick around and train harder and better and learn the ropes and realize, eventually, that you have to take out of it whatever makes you satisfied and happy. If you're looking for excuses to not be successful, you'll find them.
    Kim Pfister, Rainmaker Labs

  6. #106
    Senior Member Wayne Nutt's Avatar
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    Sue, hooking is when dog does not take a straight line to the bird but runs to either right or left of bird and turns into the bird when reaches the appropriate distance. In derby this is not judged in a negative way.

    My two cents on FT which is based on one derby. I found the two judges to be very helpful to a newcomer. I didn't get a ribbon but I was very pleased with the test and judges.
    Wayne Nutt
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  7. #107
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainmaker View Post
    Whoever posted and claimed the blinds are set up and obviously trained on by the "buddies" beforehand, good lord what a bunch of hogwash. In training grounds, there are only so many options for blinds and marks and if the are grounds used regularly (as in, get out and train often, because it actually takes work to train/run a dog successfully), you betcha some of the locals are going to have seen the same or similar setups. But it isn't a conspiracy, it's just how it works when there are only so many ponds and fields available. And it can just as often work against the local dog as not.
    In my experience, unless the grounds are really distinctive--say severe terrain or whatever--the folks that train on them regularly and right before the trial are probably hurt as much as helped. Chances are the judges might see the "go to" setups but run it differently enough that you are better off coming in cold than having the dog remember how it ran it Monday through Thursday.

  8. #108
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Drive View Post
    [/B]Just curious, how much hunting time does your dog see and much training have you done yourself? Seems if you live in Chicago not many ducks hunts there nor training grounds. I say the same, if you choose not to train nor hunt your loss....and your dogs loss. They were bred to hunt and I sure enjoy training myself, the bond I have with my dog cannot be matched if my dogs live on a pro's truck.

    Seems the field trial folk only need to get together with some drinks and we have an old fashion bar brawl!
    You wouldn't know if I hunt or not. You don't get 507000 miles on your truck sitting home. You get it my working and training your dogs in addition to trialing. Seems like you know nothing about where our training grounds in Chicago are located either. Your just wanting to be a hunting snob without any information. And I would match the bond I have with my dogs to anyone's. They work their hearts out for me.

    I find it curious that someone who hides behind a handle and just joins on 7-9-2014 is attacking people they don't know. Another noob with an agenda it seems to me.

    And you're right. My dogs never have any fun. This dog never set a paw on a pro truck. And just so we're clear, that would be 28 greenheads and 5 woodies pulled out of the Mississippi when it was as cold as ice.... matter of fact, there was ice.




    have a good day, Shirley.
    Last edited by JusticeDog; 07-23-2014 at 08:34 AM.
    Susan

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  9. #109
    Senior Member rboudet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Drive View Post
    [/B]Just curious, how much hunting time does your dog see and much training have you done yourself? Seems if you live in Chicago not many ducks hunts there nor training grounds. I say the same, if you choose not to train nor hunt your loss....and your dogs loss. They were bred to hunt and I sure enjoy training myself, the bond I have with my dog cannot be matched if my dogs live on a pro's truck.

    Seems the field trial folk only need to get together with some drinks and we have an old fashion bar brawl!
    Do you have as much disdain for retriever folks that choose other venues to compete with THEIR dog (agility, ob., etc...) or just a pet? I think you would be very surprised with the amount of "FT" dogs that hunt. Am I ok if I have a hunting dog at home and have a dog to compete in FTs? And why does it matter to you what people do with their dogs?

  10. #110
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Drive View Post
    Seems if you live in Chicago not many ducks hunts there nor training grounds. I say the same, if you choose not to train nor hunt your loss....and your dogs loss.
    I have done a lot of pheasant and duck hunting about an hour south of Chicago. Some really great opportunities in the area--Chicago is actually much closer to decent hunting than my current home, even with traffic.

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